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Ancient Origins of the Kurds

About history of Kurdistan and middle east and the world.

Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:33 am

The origin of my tribe name is strange, but does work hand in hand with me being Fayli:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirvan#Caucasian_Population
Shirvan (from Persian: شروان‎ > Azerbaijani: Şirvan;), also spelled as Shirwan, Shervan, Sherwan and Šervān, is a historical region in the eastern Caucasus, known by this name in both Islamic and modern times.[1] Today, the region, an industrially and agriculturally developed part of Azerbaijan that stretches between the western shores of the Caspian Sea and the Kura River and is centred on the Shirvan Plain.[2]

Contents [hide]
1 Medieval history and etymology
1.1 Shirvanshahs
1.2 Safavid and Afsharid Era
2 Modern history up to Azerbaijan S.S.R
3 People and Culture
3.1 Caucasian Population
3.2 Iranic Influence and Population
3.3 Turkification of the region
4 See also
5 References
6 External links and references


[edit] Medieval history and etymologyMain articles: Caucasian Albania, Shirvanshah, Safavid, Great Seljuq Empire, Qajar dynasty, Afsharid, and Ottomans
Vladimir Minorsky believes that names such Sharvan (Shirwan), Layzan and Baylaqan are Iranian names from the Iranian languages of the Coast of Capsian.[3] Shervan is a male name is Persian, means cypress tree (Sarv is the Arabic equivalent, used in today's Persian language to describe a cypress tree), reference (Dehkhoda dictionary). However the name is also connected popularly to Anushiravan, the Sassanid King.[4] Another meaning of Shirwan according to the Dehkhoda dictionary is protector/protected of/by the lions. Shirvan in Kurdish means protector of the lion, the name is widely used for male and there is a castle near Kirkuk (south Kurdistan or Turkmeneli) called Qalai Shirwana or Shirvana.

According to the Encyclopedia of Islam, Shirwan proper comprised the easternmost spurs of the Caucasus range and the lands which sloped down from these mountains to the banks of the Kur river. But its rulers strove continuously to control also the western shores of the Caspian Sea from Ḳuba (the modern town of Quba) in the district of Maskat in the north, to Baku in the south. To the north of all these lands lay Bab al-Abwab or Derbend, and to the west, beyond the modern Goychay, the region of Shaki. In mediaeval Islamic times, and apparently in pre-Islamic Sāsānid ones also, Shirwan included the district of Layzan, which probably corresponds to modern Lahidj, often ruled as a separate fief by a collateral branch of the Yazidi Shirwan Shahs.[5]


Traditional pile carpet of ShirvanThe 19th century native historian and writer Abbasgulu Bakikhanov defines it as: "The country of Shirvan to the east borders on the Caspia Sea, and to the south on the river Kur, which separates it from the provinces of Moghan and Armenia".[6]

[edit] ShirvanshahsMain article: Shirvanshahs
Shirvanshah also spelled as Shīrwān Shāh or Sharwān Shāh, was the title in mediaeval Islamic times of a Persianized dynasty of Arabic origin.[5] They ruled the area independently or as a vassal of larger empires from 800 A.D. up to 1607 A.D. when Safavid rule became firmly established.

[edit] Safavid and Afsharid EraMain articles: Shirvanshahs and Afsharid
When the Shirwanshah Shah dynasty was ended by the Safavid Shah Tahmasp I, Shirwan formed a province of Persia and was usually governed by a Khan, who is often called Beylerbey or Amir al-Umara.[1] Shirwan was taken by the Ottomans in 1578, however Safavid rule was restored by 1607.[1] In 1722 the Khan of Quba, Husayn Ali, submitted to Peter the Great and was accepted as his dginitary. By the treaty between Russian and Ottoman empires in the year 1724, the coast of the territory of Baku, which was occupied by the Russians, was separated from the rest of Shirvan, which was left to the Ottomans. It was only when Nadir Shah defeated the Ottomans (1735), that the Russians ceded the coastal land and the area became part of the Afsharid empire.[1]

[edit] Modern history up to Azerbaijan S.S.RWhen the Qajars had succeeded in restoring the unity of Persia, the sons of the Khan were no more able to maintain their independence than the other Caucasian chiefs and had to choose between Russia and Persia.[1] The Khan of Shirwan, Mustafa, who had already entered into negotiations with Zubov, submitted to the Russians in 1805, who occupied Derbend and Baku next year (1806), but soon afterwards he made overtures to the Persians and sought help from them.[1] By the peace of Gulistan (12/24 October 1813), Persia gave up all claim to Darband, Quba, Shirwan and Baku.[1] Nevertheless, Mustafa continued to have secret dealings with Persia. It was not till 1820 that his territory was occupied by Russian troops; the Khan fled to Persia and Shemakha was incorporated in Russian territory.[1]

[edit] People and CultureMain articles: Turkic peoples, Iranian Peoples, Azerbaijanis, Tat people (Caucasus), Lezgins, and Caucasian languages
The term Shirvani/Shirvanli is still in use in Azerbaijan to designate the people of Shirvan region, as it was historically.[7] Since ancient time, the bulk population of Shirvan were Caucasian speaking groups. Later on Iranianization of this native population and subsequent Turkification since the Seljuq era occurred. The bulk of the population today are Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanis, although there are also smaller Caucasian speaking and Iranian speaking minorities.

[edit] Caucasian PopulationThe original population were Paleo-Caucasians and spoke Caucasian languages like the Caucasian Albanians. Today other Daghestani Caucasian languages such as Udi, Lezgin and Avar are still spoken in the region.

[edit] Iranic Influence and PopulationIranian penetration started since the Achaemenid era and continued in the Parthian era. However it was during the Sassanid era that the influence really increased and Persian colonies were set up in the region. According to Vladimir Minorsky: The presence of Iranian settlers in Transcaucasia, and especially in the proximity of the passes, must have played an important role in absorbing and pushing back the aboriginal inhabitants. Such names as Sharvan, Layzan, Baylaqan, etc., suggest that the Iranian immigration proceeded chiefly from Gilan and other regions on the southern coast of the Caspian.[8] Abu al-Hasan Ali ibn al-Husayn Al-Masudi (896–956), the Arab historian states Persian presence in Aran, Bayleqan, Darband, Shabaran, Masqat and Jorjan.[9] From 9th century, the urban population of Shirwan increasingly moved to Persian language.[10][11] while the rural population seems to mostly have retained their old Caucasian languages. Up to the nineteenth century, there was still a large number of Tat population (who claim to be descendants of Sassanid era Persian settlers), however due to similar culture and religion with Turkic speaking Azerbaijanis, this population was partly assimilated.[12]

[edit] Turkification of the regionTurkic penetration in the region started in the Khazar era, however there are no unambiguous references to settlements.[13] The Turkification of the region started in the Seljuq era, although the area in parallel maintained its Persian culture under the Persianized Shirvanshah until the Safavid era. From the Safavid era onwards, the Turkification of the region accelerated, where the bulk of the population adopted Turkic languages and the population was eventually fused into the modern Azerbaijani people.[14]

The bulk of the population consisted of Turkic speakers with an admixture of Arabs and Persians.[15]

According to The Earth and its Inhabitants, published in 1891:

“ In their habits those of the lower Kura, Shirvan, and Baku approach nearer to the Persians than to the Turks. They seldom practice polygamy, and their women generally work freely with unveiled faces. On the whole they are remarkably tolerant, nor does the Shia sect take advantage of its decide to ascendancy to persecute either the Sunnite Muslims or their Christian neighbors.[16] ”

At the same time, according to An Illustrated Description of the Russian Empire published in 1855, the population of Shirvan was mostly made up of Persians:

“ Shirvan was formerly a province of Persia…The inhabitants of this province are chiefly Muslim Persians.[17] ”

However, in Russian empire Shia Muslims in general were referred to as Persians. Russian Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary, published in 1890-1907, stated that the most numerous people in Baku governorate were “Azerbaijani Tatars, who are incorrectly called Persians. They are similar to Persians in many ways, but their language is Turko-Tatar”.[18]

To distinguish Turkic speakers of Iranian descent from other Turkic peoples, the Russians introduced the term Azerbaijani in the later half the 19th century. Russian Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary, published in 1890, states[19]:

“ some scholars (Yadrintsev, Kharuzin, Chantre) suggested to change the terminology of some Turko-Tatar people, who somatically don’t have much in common with Turks, for instance, to call Azerbaijani Tatars (Iranians by race) Azerbaijans.[20]
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:55 am

As I said I always blieve the Laks being to the same Laks living in Dagestan. They were probably Caucasian speakers and adopted Kurdish language from Hewrami speakers. This is why many of them have a North Caucasian like look.

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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:09 am

Kurdistano wrote:As I said I always blieve the Laks being to the same Laks living in Dagestan. They were probably Caucasian speakers and adopted Kurdish language from Hewrami speakers. This is why many of them have a North Caucasian like look.

Well this is specifically say Ali Shirwanis. However the study that I posted before on genetics of the Kurds, more specifically Faylis(Laks) showed high r1b and r1a. So yes Faylis may of had some native caucasian input, but the fact of the matter is the wiki article states that parthians and medians also influenced the region at the time, and shirwan is an iranic name. So I personally think that Faylis actually were Parthians who settled in the North east caucasus, which conicides with the Parthian settlements(Great Parthia/Parthia exterior), then moved to what is South east Kurdistan. With it the Faylis mixed with native caucasians and culturally were probably also influenced by the native caucasians. Though if you hear the Fayli language word for word, you will see a few of our words have eastern Iranic influences, also goes hand in hand with the fact the Parthians were in modern day afghanistan, turkimenistan with the scythians and Bactrians.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:25 am

jjmuneer wrote:
Kurdistano wrote:As I said I always blieve the Laks being to the same Laks living in Dagestan. They were probably Caucasian speakers and adopted Kurdish language from Hewrami speakers. This is why many of them have a North Caucasian like look.

Well this is specifically say Ali Shirwanis. However the study that I posted before on genetics of the Kurds, more specifically Faylis(Laks) showed high r1b and r1a. So yes Faylis may of had some native caucasian input, but the fact of the matter is the wiki article states that parthians and medians also influenced the region at the time, and shirwan is an iranic name. So I personally think that Faylis actually were Parthians who settled in the North east caucasus, which conicides with the Parthian settlements(Great Parthia/Parthia exterior), then moved to what is South east Kurdistan. With it the Faylis mixed with native caucasians and culturally were probably also influenced by the native caucasians. Though if you hear the Fayli language word for word, you will see a few of our words have eastern Iranic influences, also goes hand in hand with the fact the Parthians were in modern day afghanistan, turkimenistan with the scythians and Bactrians.


Which genetic study please post again. You seem to misunderstand me. What I believe more is that Feylis-Leks were the Hurrian part which mixed with the Iranic part of Kurds, this fusion happened thousand of years ago of course so the Feylis will be similar Iranic/Hurric as other Kurds. The thing is even another name used for Feylis/Leks even indicates this. Kelhuri which basically means "Gel" "Huri" (Hurrian folks).


I believe the Laks in the Caucasus just like the whole Caucasian language family was introduced there by Hurro-Urartaens. The Caucasus spoke probably other languages before (probably Cimmerian).

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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:40 am

(The study is on this forum, scroll back a few pages. If not I'll find it again.)
No I see what you mean. What your saying is that Faylis were native east caucasians who were infact iranified. I have to say something though, I think your mixing Fayli with Khelori. As in the terms, because yeh broadly speaking all South-east Kurds are Faylis or Fayli(Pahli) speakers, but when I refer to Fayli, I refer specifically to the tribes of Ali Shirwan etc... In the ilam and south Kirmanshan area. Basically what I'm saying is that Fayli are the direct decendants of the Parthian invaders that created settlements. A minority however mixed with native caucasians. To be honest the native caucasian influence can also come from the native Elamites. I mean there are many possibilities, in terms of how the name came to be. I'm saying basically that the influence in the caucasus was contiouous even before the Parthian settlements, right back to the Medes. By the way if you want to talk in terms of looks, many Faylis can look like North Iranians, they can also look like Europeans, but I don't think you should judge origins based on looks/phenotypes. Since phenotypes can change over-time even without mixing, as you know due to enviroment etc..

Here are all the names of clans and tribes that are categorized as Fayli:
Laki, Luri, Kordali, Ali Sherwan consisting of (his four sons / clans Cheragh Wandi, Safar Wandi, Herwandi, Darawandi), Malek Shahi, Jaberi, Ansari, kalhor, Zouri or Zhohairi, Qaitoli, Khezell, Showhan, Mousie, Warkoz, klawai, Bolia, Maliman, Zangana, Bakhtiari, Zand, Soria-Mori, Mamsani, Jgangi, Papi, Bojarahmad, Kahlgilija, Mishkhas, Hasanwandi, Pirawandi, Kakwandi, Dinawandi, Dohsan, Zouri, Bawe, Larti, Heni-meni, Qazi, Qalawlaws, Aljoi, Mafi, Warizwand, Amreri, Panchseton, Wazrgoush, Tolabi, Siljurzi, Shola, Qaderhama, and Kaka.


They all have Iranic names.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: alan131210 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:22 pm

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Kurdish state is on the horizon with WK now freed great kurdistan is closing in.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:25 pm

alan131210 wrote:http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Kurdistan.html

They should change it to 'Iranic' stock, instead of "Iranian" stock.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:00 pm

Kurdistano wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:
Kurdistano wrote:As I said I always blieve the Laks being to the same Laks living in Dagestan. They were probably Caucasian speakers and adopted Kurdish language from Hewrami speakers. This is why many of them have a North Caucasian like look.

Well this is specifically say Ali Shirwanis. However the study that I posted before on genetics of the Kurds, more specifically Faylis(Laks) showed high r1b and r1a. So yes Faylis may of had some native caucasian input, but the fact of the matter is the wiki article states that parthians and medians also influenced the region at the time, and shirwan is an iranic name. So I personally think that Faylis actually were Parthians who settled in the North east caucasus, which conicides with the Parthian settlements(Great Parthia/Parthia exterior), then moved to what is South east Kurdistan. With it the Faylis mixed with native caucasians and culturally were probably also influenced by the native caucasians. Though if you hear the Fayli language word for word, you will see a few of our words have eastern Iranic influences, also goes hand in hand with the fact the Parthians were in modern day afghanistan, turkimenistan with the scythians and Bactrians.


Which genetic study please post again. You seem to misunderstand me. What I believe more is that Feylis-Leks were the Hurrian part which mixed with the Iranic part of Kurds, this fusion happened thousand of years ago of course so the Feylis will be similar Iranic/Hurric as other Kurds. The thing is even another name used for Feylis/Leks even indicates this. Kelhuri which basically means "Gel" "Huri" (Hurrian folks).


I believe the Laks in the Caucasus just like the whole Caucasian language family was introduced there by Hurro-Urartaens. The Caucasus spoke probably other languages before (probably Cimmerian).

I thought about it and I think Feylis instead of have Hurrians ancestry, probably have Kassite ancestry. Considering the fact Kassites were also probably native caucasians, and related to the Hurrians.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:22 pm

The Kassites were an ancient Near Eastern people who gained control of Babylonia after the fall of the Old Babylonian Empire after ca. 1531 BC to ca. 1155 BC (short chronology). Their Kassite language is thought to have been related to Hurrian,[1] and not Indo-European or Semitic although the evidence for its genetic affiliation is meager due to the scarcity of extant texts.

The original homeland of the Kassites is not well known, but appears to have been located in the Zagros Mountains in Lorestan in what is now modern Iran, although, like the Elamites, Gutians and Manneans, they were unrelated to the later Indo-European/Iranic Medes and Persians who came to dominate the region a thousand years later.[2][3] They first appeared in the annals of history in the 18th century BC when they attacked Babylonia in the 9th year of the reign of Samsu-iluna (reigned ca. 1749–1712 BC), the son of Hammurabi. Samsu-iluna repelled them, as did Abi-Eshuh, but they subsequently gained control of Babylonia circa 1570 BC some 25 years after the fall of Babylon to the Hittites in ca. 1595 BC, and went on to conquer the southern part of Mesopotamia, roughly corresponding to ancient Sumer and known as the Dynasty of the Sealand by ca. 1460 BC. The Hittites had carried off the idol of the god Marduk, but the Kassite rulers regained possession, returned Marduk to Babylon, and made him the equal of the Kassite Shuqamuna. The circumstances of their rise to power are unknown, due to a lack of documentation from this so-called "Dark Age" period of widespread dislocation. No inscription or document in the Kassite language has been preserved, an absence that cannot be purely accidental, suggesting a severe regression of literacy in official circles. Babylon under Kassite rulers, who renamed the city Karanduniash, re-emerged as a political and military power in Mesopotamia. A newly built capital city Dur-Kurigalzu was named in honour of Kurigalzu I (ca. early 14th century BC).


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I think the Kassites may of genetically and racially influenced South-Eastern Kurds considering the fact that some Feylis possess J1*, which alone is non-semitic. It would be unlikely that the Iranic invaders didn't mix with the natives.


The Gutians (also Guteans or Guti) were a tribe that overran southern Mesopotamia when the Akkadian empire collapsed in approximately 2154 BC.

Sumerian sources portray the Gutians as a barbarous, ravenous people from Gutium or Qutium (Sumerian: Gu-tu-umki[1] or Gu-ti-umki[2]) in the mountains, presumably the central Zagros in the Kurdish area of Iraq. The Sumerian king list represents them as ruling over Sumer for a short time after the fall of the Akkadian Empire, and paints a picture of chaos within the Gutian administration.[3]

Next to nothing is known about their origins, as no "Gutian" artifacts have surfaced from that time; little information is gleaned from the contemporary sources.[4] Nothing is known of their language either, apart from those Sumerian king names, and that it was distinct from other known languages of the region (such as Sumerian, Akkadian, Hurrian, Hittite and Elamite).

According to the historian Henry Hoyle Howorth (1901), Assyriologist Theophilus Pinches (1908), renowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1929) and Assyriologist Ignace Gelb (1944) the Gutians were pale skinned and blonde haired.[10][11][12][13] This identification of the Gutians as fair haired first came to light when Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, meaning "light colored" or "fair-skinned".[14][15] This racial character of the Gutians as blondes or being light skinned was also taken up by Georges Vacher de Lapouge in 1899 and later by historian Sidney Smith in his Early history of Assyria (1928).[16][17] Ephraim Avigdor Speiser however criticised the translation of "namrum" as "light colored". An article was published by Speiser in the Journal of the American Oriental Society attacking Gelb's translation.[18] Gelb in response accused Speiser of circular reasoning.[19] In response Speiser claimed the scholarship regarding the translation of "namrum" or "namrûtum" is unresolved.[20]

[edit] Modern connection theoriesThe historical Guti have been regarded by some as among the ancestors of the Kurds, including by some modern assyriologists.[21] However, the term Guti had by late antiquity become a "catch all" term to describe all tribal peoples in the Zagros region, and according to J.P. Mallory, the original Gutians precede the arrival of Indo-Iranian peoples (of which the Kurds are one) by some 1500 years[22] In the late 19th-century, Assyriologist Julius Oppert sought to connect the Gutians of remote antiquity with the later Gutones (Goths), whom Ptolemy in 150 AD had known as the Guti, a tribe of Scandia. Oppert's theory on this connection is not shared by many scholars today, in the absence of further evidence.


I personally believe the Gutes were one of the main native ancestors of the Kurds, along with the Hurrians. They were probably were similar to the Hurrian in language, but I think in race they maybe of been more Med Dolicephalic, considering that region today carries that type persistantly, along with Irano-Nordoid. Though that may of been attributed to the Iranic invaders.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:26 pm

The Gutians (also Guteans or Guti) were a tribe that overran southern Mesopotamia when the Akkadian empire collapsed in approximately 2154 BC.

Sumerian sources portray the Gutians as a barbarous, ravenous people from Gutium or Qutium (Sumerian: Gu-tu-umki[1] or Gu-ti-umki[2]) in the mountains, presumably the central Zagros in the Kurdish area of Iraq. The Sumerian king list represents them as ruling over Sumer for a short time after the fall of the Akkadian Empire, and paints a picture of chaos within the Gutian administration.[3]

Next to nothing is known about their origins, as no "Gutian" artifacts have surfaced from that time; little information is gleaned from the contemporary sources.[4] Nothing is known of their language either, apart from those Sumerian king names, and that it was distinct from other known languages of the region (such as Sumerian, Akkadian, Hurrian, Hittite and Elamite

In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian [9] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium".

[edit] Gutian languageMain article: Gutian language
[edit] Physical AppearanceAccording to the historian Henry Hoyle Howorth (1901), Assyriologist Theophilus Pinches (1908), renowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1929) and Assyriologist Ignace Gelb (1944) the Gutians were pale skinned and blonde haired.[10][11][12][13] This identification of the Gutians as fair haired first came to light when Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, meaning "light colored" or "fair-skinned".[14][15] This racial character of the Gutians as blondes or being light skinned was also taken up by Georges Vacher de Lapouge in 1899 and later by historian Sidney Smith in his Early history of Assyria (1928).[16][17] Ephraim Avigdor Speiser however criticised the translation of "namrum" as "light colored". An article was published by Speiser in the Journal of the American Oriental Society attacking Gelb's translation.[18] Gelb in response accused Speiser of circular reasoning.[19] In response Speiser claimed the scholarship regarding the translation of "namrum" or "namrûtum" is unresolved.[20]



I think the Gutians were one of our main ancestors, considering the fact they also may of been related to the Hurrians and predate the Iranic invasions. They also lived in the zagros mountains. Apparently they were fair skinned, that may of not been due to the Iranic invaders, but adaption to the cold climate in the mountains. I guess they may of been a mixture of different phenotypes, probably mostly Dolicephalic Meds, with an influence of Nordic.

The Kassites were an ancient Near Eastern people who gained control of Babylonia after the fall of the Old Babylonian Empire after ca. 1531 BC to ca. 1155 BC (short chronology). Their Kassite language is thought to have been related to Hurrian,[1] and not Indo-European or Semitic although the evidence for its genetic affiliation is meager due to the scarcity of extant texts.

The original homeland of the Kassites is not well known, but appears to have been located in the Zagros Mountains in Lorestan in what is now modern Iran, although, like the Elamites, Gutians and Manneans, they were unrelated to the later Indo-European/Iranic Medes and Persians who came to dominate the region a thousand years later.[2][3] They first appeared in the annals of history in the 18th century BC when they attacked Babylonia in the 9th year of the reign of Samsu-iluna (reigned ca. 1749–1712 BC), the son of Hammurabi. Samsu-iluna repelled them, as did Abi-Eshuh, but they subsequently gained control of Babylonia circa 1570 BC some 25 years after the fall of Babylon to the Hittites in ca. 1595 BC, and went on to conquer the southern part of Mesopotamia, roughly corresponding to ancient Sumer and known as the Dynasty of the Sealand by ca. 1460 BC. The Hittites had carried off the idol of the god Marduk, but the Kassite rulers regained possession, returned Marduk to Babylon, and made him the equal of the Kassite Shuqamuna. The circumstances of their rise to power are unknown, due to a lack of documentation from this so-called "Dark Age" period of widespread dislocation. No inscription or document in the Kassite language has been preserved, an absence that cannot be purely accidental, suggesting a severe regression of literacy in official circles. Babylon under Kassite rulers, who renamed the city Karanduniash, re-emerged as a political and military power in Mesopotamia. A newly built capital city Dur-Kurigalzu was named in honour of Kurigalzu I (ca. early 14th century BC).


That Kassites were also non-semitic and related to the Hurrians. They probably also were a secondary ancestors to the Kurds in the south-east of Kurdistan, native ancestor that is. I think that is why J1*, as opposed to J1C3* occurs amongst Faylis. Not at high frequencies, but none the less it occurs.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: Shere Medya » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:26 pm

So who do you think my main ancestors would based on my tribes location? I couldn't really find my town but I could only find the biggest town of my tribe. It is called Choman. We don't like to call ourselves a tribe though :) It is in the Soran district

http://www.citymaphq.com/iraq/erbil/choman.html

According to wiki:

Kurdish settlement in the region dates back prior to the establishment of the Sassanid empire.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: Rando » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:24 pm

to be honest i dont know very much about our ancestors.
can anyone tell me who our ancestors are? is there solid proof that the medes are our ancestors?
(i personally believe that they are and have grown up all my life believeing that,but i want to know if there is proof conecting kurds and medes).
thanks :smile:
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:28 pm

Rando wrote:to be honest i dont know very much about our ancestors.
can anyone tell me who our ancestors are? is there solid proof that the medes are our ancestors?
(i personally believe that they are and have grown up all my life believeing that,but i want to know if there is proof conecting kurds and medes).
thanks :smile:


Native ancestors: Gutes, Hurrians, Manneans & Lullibis (The Manneans and Lullibis were most likely later on put under the Gutian category.)
Indo-European ancestors: Scythians (Alans), Medes & Parthians.

In regards to to evidence. Well there are several documents and articles explaining the connection to our Median ancestors. Our language, culture and genetics. Though the latter pan Turks and Arabs argue there is little evidence. Well actually there is quite alot of evidence connecting the Kurds genetically to the caspian sea region and with populations of that region.
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: Rando » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:48 pm

jjmuneer wrote:
Rando wrote:to be honest i dont know very much about our ancestors.
can anyone tell me who our ancestors are? is there solid proof that the medes are our ancestors?
(i personally believe that they are and have grown up all my life believeing that,but i want to know if there is proof conecting kurds and medes).
thanks :smile:


Native ancestors: Gutes, Hurrians, Manneans & Lullibis (The Manneans and Lullibis were most likely later on put under the Gutian category.)
Indo-European ancestors: Scythians (Alans), Medes & Parthians.

In regards to to evidence. Well there are several documents and articles explaining the connection to our Median ancestors. Our language, culture and genetics. Though the latter pan Turks and Arabs argue there is little evidence. Well actually there is quite alot of evidence connecting the Kurds genetically to the caspian sea region and with populations of that region.


thanks alot for explaing,jj :-D
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Re: Ancient Origins of the Kurds

PostAuthor: max_b » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:38 am


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