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Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

Discuss about language(s) in English

Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:07 pm

First, we must compare, which pronomes of the todays speaking iranian languages are the most old forms and are to Old Iranian at nearest. Let us compare the pronome for "I".

Note: All examples are in the kurdish alphabet, but High Iranian Examples have not dumb "i", only always normal "i", because this is not iranic.

1. Person Singular Rectus

English Meaning: I

Avesta: ezêm, Old Persian: edêm (from Old Iranian < ezêm), Parthian: ez, Sanskrit: ehem, from Proto-Indoeuropean: eghom, in relation with Latin: ego, Old English: ic (Old Germanic: ik > German: ich), French: je

In todays iranian languages:

Persian: did lost it and replaced it with the obliquus pronome "mine"
Kurdish, Zazaki, Talysch: ez
Ossetian: îz
Pashto: ze

So, we take for High Iranian Language: ez for 1. Pers. sing. Rectus

1. Person Singular Obliquus

English Meaning: My, Me, Mine

Avesta: mene, Old Persian: menâ, Parthian, Middle Persian: men

Persian: men
Balochi: mân
Kurdish, Zazaki: min

So, we take for High Iranian Language: men for 1. Pers. sing. Obliquus

1. Person Plural Rectus

English Meaning: We

Avesta: ehmā-, Parthian: emâ

Persian, Balochi Zazaki: mâ, Judeo-Persian: emâ
Kurdish: ême
Hawrami, Talysh: ema

So, we take for High Iranian Language: ema for 1. Pers. plur. Rectus

1. Person Plural Obliquus

English Meaning: Us, Our

Avesta: ehmā-, Parthian: emâ

Persian, Balochi Zazaki:
Kurdish: me

So, we take for High Iranian Language: ma for 1. Pers. plur. Obliquus

2. Person Singular Rectus

English Meaning: you

Avesta: tû, Proto-Indoeuropean: tu, French: tu, Latin: tu

Persian: to
Kurdish: tu, Zazaki: tu/ti

So, we take for High Iranian Language: tu for 2. Pers. sing. Rectus

2. Person Singular Obliquus

English Meaning: your, you

Old Iranic: ???, South Slavic: te, Spanish: te, Proto-Indoeuropean: *t(w)eino-, German: dein

Persian: to
Kurdish, Taylsch: te, Zazaki: to/ti/te
Balochi: tehwo, Pashto:

So, my suggestion for High Iranian is: te for 2. Pers. sing. Obliquus

2. Person Plural Rectus

English Meaning: you (plural)

Avesta yuşmâ-, Parthian: eşmâ

Persian: şoma
Kurdish: êwe / hûn, Zazaki: şima (read: şma), Talysch: şema
Balochi: şuma

So, we take for High Iranian Language: êşma (Kurdish ê + Zazaki: şma) for 2. Pers. plur. Rectus

2. Person Plural Obliquus

English Meaning: you, your (plural)

Avesta yuşmâ-, Parthian: eşmâ

Persian: şoma
Kurdish: we, Zazaki: şima (read: şma), Talysch: şema
Balochi: şuma

So, we take for High Iranian Language: şma for 2. Pers. plur. Obliquus

3. Person Singular rectus

English Meaning: he, she, it

Avesta eve

Persian: un / u
Kurdish: ew / ewe, Zazaki: o /a / ew, Talysch: ev
Hawrami: aw

So, we take for High Iranian Language: eve (Talysch: ev + Kurdish: -e) for 2. Pers. plur. Rectus

3. Person Singular Obliquus

No Information about Old Iranic

3. Person Plural Rectus

No Information about Old Iranic

3. Person Plural Obliquus

No Information about Old Iranic

So we can abstract:

Rectus: ez, tu, ema, êşma, eve, ?
Obliquus: men, te, ma, şma, ?, ?

We have yet only one step to complete the Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!
Last edited by Johny Bravo on Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

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Re: Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

PostAuthor: Teshub » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:44 pm

In my opinion speaking a so-called dead language is better than creating an artificial new one, like what ataturcoman did in Anatolia.

However best choice is to use local languages.

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Re: Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:29 am

The dead old and middle iranian languages are too far from the todays iranian languages. Such a language were totally ununderstandable for all iranic people, the grammer, phonetic, morphology of Old Iranian Languages were completly different.

And the words were 5 times longer as in todays iranian language.

Example: Avesta: ehmake = we

But todays Iranian: ema

This is only one example of many, there are many words there were in Old Iranian 10 or 20 times longer.

So, why we should make all more difficult?

Its the same:

The people must learn the new High Iranian Language, option 1: They learn un-understandable Avesta or option 2: They learn a mix of todays iranian languages.
Last edited by Johny Bravo on Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:36 am

Johny Bravo wrote:The dead old and middle iranian languages are too far from the todays iranian languages. Such a language were totally ununderstandable for all iranic people, the grammer, phonetic, morphology of Old Iranian Languages were completly different.

And the words were 5 times longer as in todays iranian language.

Example: Avesta: ehmake = we

But todays Iranian: ema

So, why we should make all more difficult?

Its the same:

The people must learn the new High Iranian Language, option 1: They learn un-understandable Avesta or option 2: They learn a mix of todays iranian languages.


But creating a new language by mixing a few languages is unnatural and the result will be something funny like modern Turkish. That's a mistake.

PS. look at this Sorani sentence:
Êmekesh dechîn = we too go.
(êmeke = we)

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Re: Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:43 am

@Teshub

Why this were unnatural, we use only existing words of the natural language. We don't create new words. We use the nature hisself. We only make the loud variants one.

Its like: kurdish: birdin, Persian: borden, Zazaki: berden

From Old Iranic steme "ber", Proto Indoeuropean "bher"; Greek "ber", Sanskrit "bher", with past time suffix "d".

So High Iranian: berden, "en" is older than "in", Parthian, Pahlavi: "en", also Old Iranic. German: -en, as in "mach-en" = to make

What is on this artifical.

We take from All Iranic languages the most old words. That its.

Imagine Avesta with his totally foreign grammer feature and words.

Like: Avesta: vatta = wind
But Todays Iranian: Vat (Persian: bâd, Kurdish: ba, South Kurdish: wa Caspian, Zazaki, Hawrami: va, Balochi: gwat)

Or "Heart": Avesta: ziride (changed in Old Persian to *drd)
But todays Iranian: zird (Kurdish, Persian: dil, Pahsto: zrre, Zazaki: zerrî, Hawrami: zil, Balochi: zird) from Parthian: zird

Or "you": yushmake
But todays iranian: shma, shoma, shuma, êwe

Êmekesh dechîn = we too go.
(êmeke = we)


Very interesant!
Last edited by Johny Bravo on Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:51 pm

Or other example:

The word "to eat" in New Iranian:

Kurdish: xwardin
Pashto: xwerel
Persian: xorden
Zazaki: werden
Balochi: werdeg
Hawrami: wardey

Pahlavi: xwerten, Parthian: wxerden, Avesta: xver-

!High Iranian Language!:

xwerden (Pashto: xwer-, Zazaki/Balochi: wer-, Kurdish: xw- + Persian / Zazaki: -rden = xwerden)

It's were totally understandable for all iranic people. Its a natural cocktail.

But if we take Avesta, then nobody can understand even one word.

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Re: Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

PostAuthor: ZazaName » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:05 pm

Hey Johny, good work.

I personally study Old Persian and Avestan in my school. Those languages are grammatically quite different and words are long. Avestan could be a good language for all Iranic peoples. But it is quite hard to learn. Sounds are also different. That's normal because the language changed 3000 years ago.

Avestan:
kêm-nâ mazdâ mavaitê pâyûm dadå hyat mâ dregvå dîdareshatâ aênanghê anyêm thwahmât âthrascâ mananghascâ ýayå shyaothanâish ashem thraoshtâ ahurâ tãm môi dãstvãm daênayâi frâvaocâ,

English:
What protector hast thou given unto me, O Mazda! while the hate of the wicked encompasses me? Whom but thy Atar and Vohu-mano, through whose work I keep on the world of righteousness? Reveal therefore to me thy Religion as thy rule!

quite different?

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Re: Pronomes for !High Iranian Language!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:31 pm

Spas kerem, yes Avesta is too far and too hard to learn.

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