Do you guys consider Hewramans to be Pahli Kurds?

[jjmuneer]

=))

all profs except izady agree that laki is closer to sorani, kurd-stahnam gave you enough examples, you dont accept the sources

Who is all profs? Lol you don't know nothing about Laks or Feylis you just follow what other people tell you. Sources alone mean nothing without a solid argument.

[unitedkurdistan]

Well if you understand Hawrami than you should understand Zazaki, it doesn' matter if it is a bit more influenced by Kurmanci. How come Zazaki speakers and Hawrami speakers understand eachother perfectly( I have proof) and that Fayli understand Hawrami but not Zazaki. Well this russian orientalist spent years studiyng kurdish history, geography, literature, and culture and he deserves some respect for that and appreciation don't you agree?
Now this is taken from wiki: The dialects of Southern Kurdish are:
Kermashani The Standard dialect of Southern Kurdish
Kalhuri, referring to Kalhor people and region
Feyli (also known as Ilami) referring to the Feyli tribe and the Ilam Province. It had around 3 million speakers in Iran in 2000.[3][4][5] Beyrey or Mahaki (which is a sub-dialect of Feyli)
Kolyaî, Kermanshahi (Kermānšānî)
Garrusi (Gerrûsî) (Bijari)
Malekshahi (Melikşay)
Sanjâbi (Sencabî) referring to the Sanjâbi people. It's a branch of Luri-Feyli language family

Laki is a Northwestern Iranian language. Although it is usually grouped with Southern Kurdish dialects, it is a fourth subgroup of Kurdish with lexical similarity with Luri, Western Persian, and Northern Luri.

sorry for my ignorance but do you consider all of these dialects to be Fayli? Isn't it eassier just to group them as southern kurdish, can't we just say that Fayli is the biggest dialect in southern kurdish and Sorani is the major dialect in central kurdish and Kurmanci is the major dialect in northern/western kurdish? There is no point of unifying any dialect according to me, Hawrami is endagered and needs to be protected not merged with another dialect.

You trust wikipedia? Lol anyway can write on wikipedia its so stupid to trust it. Do you have any sources for those claims? As wikipedia is full of shit frankly. Feyli isn't even the dialect, Laki is.
Any Kurdish group speaking a Kurmanci dialect cannot be a Fayli(Pahli), so no I don't view the Kirmanshahis who are urbanized as Faylis, but the ones in the countryside who still speak Laki yes.

By the way Hewramis can't understand Zazakis, that is complete non-sense.

Minorsiky considered Hewrami not to be Kurdish, so he cannot be acknowledge, nor can Kenzie.

My Kurdish Language Teacher himself said that he knows a kurdish couple, the wife is zazaki and the husband is hawrami and he said that when they first met eachother it was very surprising for them that they understood eachother. I can't find a single reason for him to lie. Instead of writing down the names of each dialect I took the names directly from wikipedia, I havn't claimed anything else from it to be true. Now if anything was untrue pls say what it is because you probably now it better.

[jjmuneer]

When did I say I know better? You are just putting words into my mouth. Anyways Zazaki-Hewrami is grouped together for historical reasons, nothing more. Even Kurdistano cleared that up earlier, and trust me he knows more than you.

[jjmuneer]

When did I say I know better? You are just putting words into my mouth. Anyways Zazaki-Hewrami is grouped together for historical reasons, nothing more. Even Kurdistano cleared that up earlier, and trust me he knows more than you.

[hevalo27]

My Kurdish Language Teacher himself said that he knows a kurdish couple, the wife is zazaki and the husband is hawrami and he said that when they first met eachother it was very surprising for them that they understood eachother. I can't find a single reason for him to lie.

that is no surprise, i had an theorie that zazaki camed through deportation to northkurdistan. they have even similarities by religion (Alevi, Shabak, Ahle-Haq). The kurdish Alevis in northwestkurdistan belive also that Ali is the real follower of prophet Muhammed, but they are not muslims, so i think they lived together with hawramans in the safafid empire (southeastkurdistan), not ottoman.

nevertheless, zazaki is surly closer to hawrami and laki to sorani

[unitedkurdistan]

When did I say I know better? You are just putting words into my mouth. Anyways Zazaki-Hewrami is grouped together for historical reasons, nothing more. Even Kurdistano cleared that up earlier, and trust me he knows more than you.

You really missunderstand things, I said you probably know better, do you get it or shall I try to explain more?? He may know more about the kurdish language than me but not my Kurdish Language Teacher.

[unitedkurdistan]

My Kurdish Language Teacher himself said that he knows a kurdish couple, the wife is zazaki and the husband is hawrami and he said that when they first met eachother it was very surprising for them that they understood eachother. I can't find a single reason for him to lie.

that is no surprise, i had an theorie that zazaki camed through deportation to northkurdistan. they have even similarities by religion (Alevi, Shabak, Ahle-Haq). The kurdish Alevis in northwestkurdistan belive also that Ali is the real follower of prophet Muhammed, but they are not muslims, so i think they lived together with hawramans in the safafid empire (southeastkurdistan), not ottoman.

nevertheless, zazaki is surly closer to hawrami and laki to sorani

Yes, but someone denies it

[kurd-sthanam]

kurdish Alevis in northwestkurdistan belive also that Ali is the real follower of prophet Muhammed, but they are not muslims, so i think they lived together with hawramans in the safafid empire (southeastkurdistan), not ottoman.

nevertheless, zazaki is surly closer to hawrami and laki to sorani

no, they believe that they are the real muslims. they have they own masjid (mescit/mosque), they say that they call the masjid "cem" and that the "camî" used by sunnis and shias is not real masjid. so yes they have mosques but they want not call it Camî.

but let me note that hawrami kurds are also mostly shafi-sunnis like the majority kurds. so were the sorani assimilated hawramis. there are also shafi-zaza.

the population of Efrin, Semsur, west-urfa and so was proably also alewi. they did even upraising together with yazdan kurds against ottoman, they took the whole geographical west kurdistan, mosul and cukurova. after the upraising was ended by ottomans the population began to be hanafi, the ottoman states official religion. the mountain range in east for cukurova is now called "kürt dagi" (ciyayê kurmênc). http://www.nasname.com/tr/10162.html

[jjmuneer]

When did I say I know better? You are just putting words into my mouth. Anyways Zazaki-Hewrami is grouped together for historical reasons, nothing more. Even Kurdistano cleared that up earlier, and trust me he knows more than you.

You really missunderstand things, I said you probably know better, do you get it or shall I try to explain more?? He may know more about the kurdish language than me but not my Kurdish Language Teacher.

This has nothing to do with personal understanding or mis-understaniding for that matter of fact. It is merely me aiming to tackle propaganda and bias agendas that are no benefit to the Kurdish people. In fact Hevalo and Kurdi-Snthanam make no attempt to hide such agendas. I am not pointing fingers, but certainly their actions and behaviours toward me make it very clear where they lie on the matter. Well I find it quite strange and unusual that they seem to argue against me. I rather like to call it critisize every point I make without actually having formulating an argument themselves. The levels of contridiction in their critisism is quite blatant and open, so there is no need to address it or re-quote it. See the problem is not a lack of communication, nor a lack of understanding bewteen eachother. It is they lack the ability to understand what a 'Dr' is, or the ability to understand what a 'Proffessor' is. As they throw in false accusations and create false statements based on solely what these students of language say. When in fact they need to realise that a linguist is merely an observer. So I find it very ignorant that they are so eager to attack my points that are validated by a Kurdish anthropologist and linguist, 'M.Izady'. When in fact they blindly follow the classifications given by foriengers on our dialect. Well I rather call it presenting our dialects in the manner that pleases them and their anti-Kurdish agenda. Therefore in conclusion they cannot use those linguists as proof that a dialect is somehow categorized into a particular area. The observations made by those linguists are meangingless if those linguists themselves don't understand all the dialects. Even so, simply using them without formulating their own argument and making clear their reasoning behind it plays even more into the hands of the the enemies of Kurdistan. As internal divisions caused by ultra-nationalists who have no regard for history and anthropology creates these problems in the first place.

[hevalo27]

jj, your problem is you cant accept facts, because you are a pahli nationalist

no, they believe that they are the real muslims. they have they own masjid (mescit/mosque), they say that they call the masjid "cem" and that the "camî" used by sunnis and shias is not real masjid. so yes they have mosques but they want not call it Camî.

i met some alevis and they say all they are not muslims and they dont pray like muslims. i think they say Cem-house, so they use a similar word to cami, but i think that is only islamic influence

but let me note that hawrami kurds are also mostly shafi-sunnis like the majority kurds. so were the sorani assimilated hawramis. there are also shafi-zaza

jes kurmanc and even turks are alevis, but i spoked about a track. how zazaki find his way to nortwestkurdistan?
someone sayd me alevi and ahle-haqq is the same religion, only other words and you will find ahle-haqqs only by hawraman kurds. their religiouse books are written in hawrami

[jjmuneer]

No I am a Kurdish nationalist that loves my ancestors. The ones you disacknowledge and distain. You will however find I am the one accepting and acknowledging facts, whilst refuting clearly with my arguments that I carefully formulated. Something known 'individual thinking'. I do not see what validates your argument that I am a disacknowledging facts. When clearly as stated previously those linguists catergoizations are artificial, as they are based on a foriegner's view point.

[kurd-sthanam]

i met some alevis and they say all they are not muslims and they dont pray like muslims. i think they say Cem-house, so they use a similar word to cami, but i think that is only islamic influence

yes, i know "alewi" wich are atheists but thats other think. accourding to them, they believe only in quran, so its not the same as yarsan. :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNpd0XGUduA they have also similarities with arab alawis in syria.

jes kurmanc and even turks are alevis, but i spoked about a track. how zazaki find his way to nortwestkurdistan?

dont know but maybe the other way.

[kurd-sthanam]

as they are based on a foriegner's view point.

izadys mother is european

and izady has no arguments i read his book. and he has realy many errors about the tribes (northern tribes)

[jjmuneer]

as they are based on a foriegner's view point.

izadys mother is european

and izady has no arguments i read his book. and he has realy many errors about the tribes (northern tribes)

But his father is Kurdish and he identifies as a Kurd. There are minor mistakes in some of his works, but that doesn't change the facts. The fact you are attempting to deviate away from, which plays into your the irony. You complain about "errors about the tribes in the north", but in fact you don't take into account the massive errors by the foriegn proffesserrs that has been instigated. It also shows that humans regardless of the amount of qualifications or achievements in life can make mistakes from time to time, so it is no reason to disacknowledge based on bias agendas. To add you mention Izady "has no arguments", well that would imply his un-bias and there is no reason to doubt his work. As it is unlikely he has a vested interested in working against the Kurdish people, since he is half Kurdish himself. Though the formation and dis-formation of tribes have occurred after Izady wrote his book, so in fact it is not a result of his poor observation, but a change in social structure of the Kurds in the North. The same applies to latter that you have been critisizing me about. As there has been serious Sorani influence, both direct and in-directly on some Feyli tribes that are non-laki speakers. Though that still is no valid reason to group an entire dialect into a new catergory entirely, created and adjusted merely to suit the political landscape. Maybe from a political perspective that is a positive thing for the Kurds, but it is aritifical in my opinion and could in affect cause more problems in the future. Though the impact will be seen later.