Peshmerga

[Rando]

unitedkurdistan: my brother,we are buying jets that was made in the 1950s. these planes are very cheap and easy to maintain. Even somalia had Mig-21 before the orgaden war broke out. there are still some wrecked mig-21s at Mogadishu airport.
zimbawe had mig-21s too. (zimbawe is the worlds poorest country).
and in my opinion,if even poor african countries have enough money to buy them,why can`t we?
but i see what you mean,and i think you misunderstood when we said we were going to buy jets. maybe you tough we were going to buy new and modern planes like the F/A-18 or F-16 (or other 4th generation generation fighters),as these would be expensive to buy and very expensive to maintain.

[alan131210]

http://wpeshmerge.org

[unitedkurdistan]

Well KRG don't afford jets, it's that simple. And if we would would.

of course they can , the budget is $20 Billion alone this year of which few billion has been allocated to Peshmerga , and there are other hidden budgets and besides KRG (PUK and PDK) have trucks of $$$ in the EU banks no need to touch the budget at all to buy some few F16s .

supas.

if KRG would afford it they would buy jets a long time ago. Doesn't KRG argue with iraq that they should pay Peshmerga?! This few billion goes to payments of peshmerga soldiers. Lets say Peshmerga has 200 000 soldiers, and each and one of them get 1000 $ everymonth. Well there we got 200 000 000 $ gone. this does not include money which also goes to entertain, like fuel, food, maintenance etcetra. Also the high corruption we have, people taking money. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnt_D-Uahuw&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&hd=1   

Everymonth 200 000 000$ gone. 200 000 000 x 12= 2,4 billion my friend. Now what if we do buy jets which we don't afford, do you even now how high the costs will be, shall we just treat turkey, iran and say if you come to attack PKK and PJAK we will attack you with these few jets which will also get destroyed in a few days? Lets become strong first, why not abuse the time we have?. Become their allies and then crush them when we are powerfull, why attack when we are weak. A couple of jets won't make anything special.

[unitedkurdistan]

unitedkurdistan: my brother,we are buying jets that was made in the 1950s. these planes are very cheap and easy to maintain. Even somalia had Mig-21 before the orgaden war broke out. there are still some wrecked mig-21s at Mogadishu airport.
zimbawe had mig-21s too (zimbawe is the worlds poorest country).
and in my opinion,if even poor african countries have enough money to buy them,why can`t we?
but i see what you mean,and i think you misunderstood when we said we were going to buy jets. maybe you tough we were going to buy new and modern planes like the F/A-18 or F-16 (or other 4th generation generation fighters),as these would be expensive to buy and very expensive to maintain.

First of all brakam, these african countries=dictatorship. They have these jets, yes but they have never used them:P Why buy something cheap, russian quality shit, when we can become strong and powerfull and then buy better jets? That will actully work and not blow it self up in the air. These african jets just stands their, getting old. Dictators are retarded fucks, i mean just look at gadhafi. These poor african countries have weak neighbours, we don't. Turkey, Iran don't see us kurds as a treat, why not abuse this time? To declare ourself independent, then start an civil war in their countries, raping the country from inside, cause right now they ahve their eyes on ISrael.

[thesunchild]

No need to buy the old dated F16 jets. F16 is very old too.

In couple of years we should by the modern Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter jets which will replace American F16 in the USA.

We should better buy much cheaper depreciated jets to practise on it and to make able for the use by the students who will be our future fightingpilots.


I we want to buy some modern and advanced jets we should buy F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and other next generation jets in the future!

[Kurdistano]

Well KRG don't afford jets, it's that simple.

thats not an argument and I dont believe that they are sos stupid

Lets say a couple of jets, then it would maybe take a couple of years to educate these pilots.

But less than 5 years for sure

Then what? When turkey comes to attack PKK, we strike back?

Who said that?

It's not that simple. First of all we will be the enemy of nato, US,

Turkey has not the right to walk into someones other country and attack if so than Nato US has nothing to do with it.

secondly iraq must give us the authority, coz we're an semi-autonomy.

Who cares of Iraq man. Who gives even a shit to the constitution so we should? And where in the constitution is said that we are not allowed to buy Jets?

Even if we do control everything in S.K, iran and turkey would crush us, what you are doing is repeading our history .

I love your Irony. Going your way is the best think to repeat the history of Mahabad republic.

Iran has actully made it's own jets, didn't we see in the infrastructure topic a kurdish made airplane?

Show me which one Iran has made. And LOl at your Kurdish made airplane not warplane are you even aware how different these two things are?

Well the engine was german. And so are the iranian made jets,

Jets this time russian engine, that's what i mean.

There you go. And you really thing that Germany or Russia would sell you there good engines? Man stop dreaming. This here is not even about better buy or make your own Jets. its about taking some preparation. Later we can make our own Jets all day long.

Another thing, the only reason iran and turkey has to attack us is if we attack them,

Man many post of yours really sound like that of an agent trying to convince us to stay weak. Are you kidding me? Iran, Turkey is destroying your villages since years they are flying over your area so what exactly are you talking about? open your eyes.

then they will have a reason and then they will destroy everything.

A reason for what? dude do you think it is that simple to move into someone elses country and destroy everything? Iran has its weakest periode in history. And buying Jets is not a reason for attack.

Well we don't afford it, do you get it?

Who are you to tell me that you dont affort it?.

KRG even spends more than the budget. Right now iran, turkey will never attack us incase they don't have an reason.

your arguments are very weak and only based on assumptions. If we go your way we would put our fate into turkish and Iranians mercy. Is that actually what you want?
`

Just because PJAK, PKK are hiding in S.K means iran and tueky can invade the cities?

They are inviding your area and destroying your villages so for Gods sake what are you talking about? Your arguments make no sense.

NO, cause we have nothing to do with them, barzani talked to turkey about it himself. That's what i mean with realistic. Why not wait coz for the moment, iran and turkey won't do a shit to S.K except killing som guerillas maybe. Wait untill we get kirkuk, get the hands of the oil. Then we can declare ourself independent.

Declare yourself independence and think Turkey and Iran will stay silent why you dont have any aircraft to stay against them. Its not about winning or loosing a war. IF you have a Air force with which you can create much damage this alone is enough argument to make your enemy think twice about a war. The world has changed there is no winner in wars.

Code: Select all

Then with an boming economy we can buy many of these toys if you like to. What do you think means with an budget? IT's an amount of money, but we can't spend the money on things we like. Just look at your own budget, lets say you get 10 000 dollars each month. Can you spend it on things you like? NO, you have bills, payments, electricty and other stuff. MAybe you get some over to rent a film or something, and in this case KRG don't get any money over.

The budget is more than enough. Your arguments make only sense if you want that KRG makes you a living like Kings. You almost talk like one of those persons who go demonstrate for too cold coffee.

So you want to be an arab, buying everything true oil? No own technology etc. Where is the pride? Man we are kurds, for us the pride, honor is the most importent.

[/quote]
Yeah too much pride to go work. Dude stop making useless arguments. Who says it is impossible to make your own warplanes later if you have bought some as preparation?

I could use all your arguments for buying airplanes and even make more but I am too silly now to do so.


Dont take my harsh words as too personal. Thats my way to argue if I dont take arguments for too real.

[Kurdistano]

First of all brakam, these african countries=dictatorship. They have these jets, yes but they have never used them:P Why buy something cheap, russian quality shit, when we can become strong and powerfull and then buy better jets?

Man you just seem to not understand. The Jets are our preparation that we even get that far to make our own Jets. Are you even aware how small sense your argument makes. Turkey, iran will try anything to stop you becoming independence. WIthout Jets we will maybe not even get so far to talk about self made jets.

[Azamat]

Mig-21s and other outdated jets are still highly suitable for air-to ground combat. As the world has witnessed before, Arab invasions are characterized by excessive use of immense ground armies(as a compensation for their cowardism and aerial amateurism) which would make the appropriate use of these jets very effective(imagine a rain of S-8 rockets annihilating their armored vehicles). Aerial superiority is a different matter however, as the jets concerned would obviously not stand a chance.

As for the long-term, I must say that I generally agree with unitedkurdistan's views on Kurdish self-sufficiency, although he obviously has no regard to the current national priorities that have to be addressed and dealt with first. An independent S. Kurdistan is going to live under the threat of invasion, and it will need a capable military to withstand such an attack. To have this military machine comprised of self-made equipment requires a future generation having received technical education which will obviously take too many years from now(assuming that the KRG would put all their stupid 'business' activities aside at once and starts servicing the Kurdish public finally).

What is needed now is a Kurdish implementation of the North Korean 'Songun' policy(albeit a more professional one!), which most of you are probably familiar with. This would require the KRG to remove itself from the infectuous international capitalist market(which I cannot see the US-modeled Kurdish political arena doing any time soon) and leave only the oil-fields open for foreign investments. The massive revenue would be primarely channeled into the military and technical education through a centralized governmental apparatus comprised of technocrats operating the money flow and allocations. The initial stages would obviously consist of military purchases from foreign countries, after which the military would gradually proceed into self-sufficiency parallel to the educated generation's capabilities. Unfortunately, by that time it is highly plausible that S.Kurdistan would already have had to face a military conflict of some sort. That is why the purchase of foreign military equipent is the most practicle solution for now, although we should obviously consider this as a temporal solution, the time-span of which should be minimized as much as possible.

Oh, and by the way: Iran actually did produce its own aircraft: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Saeqeh
Although largely modeled on the existing American F-5, they effectively produced them on their own. What's more is that they currently have a stealth jet of their own in production: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shafaq
Do these terrific advancements of a Middle-Eastern nation in proud defiance of Western hegemony not want to make you follow in their footsteps?

[thesunchild]

Do these terrific advancements of a Middle-Eastern nation in proud defiance of Western hegemony not want to make you follow in their footsteps?

No, I want that Kurds will purchase the best and most advance Fighters in the world. F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter is a great candidate for that in the near future !



For now MIG-21 is ok and good schooling to train Kurdish pilots!

[Kurdistano]

@Azamat like i said, I generally find the Idea good to make our own warplanes but we need to take preparations and cant wait till some of our enemies try to attack us. So we need first to buy some.
Best solution would be to buy Mig 21 with some F16 and I dont believe that our Budget is so small. I dont even know where he gets that from. from my knowledge Syria has a military budget of 1 and Iran 6 Billion. Kurdistan to the end of this year still has a budget of 16 Billions and beginning of the next year from my knowledge they will get + another 20 Billion from Baghdad for oil. I highly doubt that they dont have enough money.

[unitedkurdistan]

Well KRG don't afford jets, it's that simple.

thats not an argument and I dont believe that they are sos stupid

Lets say a couple of jets, then it would maybe take a couple of years to educate these pilots.

But less than 5 years for sure

Then what? When turkey comes to attack PKK, we strike back?

Who said that?

It's not that simple. First of all we will be the enemy of nato, US,

Turkey has not the right to walk into someones other country and attack if so than Nato US has nothing to do with it.

secondly iraq must give us the authority, coz we're an semi-autonomy.

Who cares of Iraq man. Who gives even a shit to the constitution so we should? And where in the constitution is said that we are not allowed to buy Jets?

Even if we do control everything in S.K, iran and turkey would crush us, what you are doing is repeading our history .

I love your Irony. Going your way is the best think to repeat the history of Mahabad republic.

Iran has actully made it's own jets, didn't we see in the infrastructure topic a kurdish made airplane?

Show me which one Iran has made. And LOl at your Kurdish made airplane not warplane are you even aware how different these two things are?

Well the engine was german. And so are the iranian made jets,

Jets this time russian engine, that's what i mean.

There you go. And you really thing that Germany or Russia would sell you there good engines? Man stop dreaming. This here is not even about better buy or make your own Jets. its about taking some preparation. Later we can make our own Jets all day long.

Another thing, the only reason iran and turkey has to attack us is if we attack them,

Man many post of yours really sound like that of an agent trying to convince us to stay weak. Are you kidding me? Iran, Turkey is destroying your villages since years they are flying over your area so what exactly are you talking about? open your eyes.

then they will have a reason and then they will destroy everything.

A reason for what? dude do you think it is that simple to move into someone elses country and destroy everything? Iran has its weakest periode in history. And buying Jets is not a reason for attack.

Well we don't afford it, do you get it?

Who are you to tell me that you dont affort it?.

KRG even spends more than the budget. Right now iran, turkey will never attack us incase they don't have an reason.

your arguments are very weak and only based on assumptions. If we go your way we would put our fate into turkish and Iranians mercy. Is that actually what you want?
`

Just because PJAK, PKK are hiding in S.K means iran and tueky can invade the cities?

They are inviding your area and destroying your villages so for Gods sake what are you talking about? Your arguments make no sense.

NO, cause we have nothing to do with them, barzani talked to turkey about it himself. That's what i mean with realistic. Why not wait coz for the moment, iran and turkey won't do a shit to S.K except killing som guerillas maybe. Wait untill we get kirkuk, get the hands of the oil. Then we can declare ourself independent.

Declare yourself independence and think Turkey and Iran will stay silent why you dont have any aircraft to stay against them. Its not about winning or loosing a war. IF you have a Air force with which you can create much damage this alone is enough argument to make your enemy think twice about a war. The world has changed there is no winner in wars.

Code: Select all

Then with an boming economy we can buy many of these toys if you like to. What do you think means with an budget? IT's an amount of money, but we can't spend the money on things we like. Just look at your own budget, lets say you get 10 000 dollars each month. Can you spend it on things you like? NO, you have bills, payments, electricty and other stuff. MAybe you get some over to rent a film or something, and in this case KRG don't get any money over.

The budget is more than enough. Your arguments make only sense if you want that KRG makes you a living like Kings. You almost talk like one of those persons who go demonstrate for too cold coffee.

So you want to be an arab, buying everything true oil? No own technology etc. Where is the pride? Man we are kurds, for us the pride, honor is the most importent.

Yeah too much pride to go work. Dude stop making useless arguments. Who says it is impossible to make your own warplanes later if you have bought some as preparation?

I could use all your arguments for buying airplanes and even make more but I am too silly now to do so.


Dont take my harsh words as too personal. Thats my way to argue if I dont take arguments for too real.[/quote]

[unitedkurdistan]

Well KRG don't afford jets, it's that simple.

thats not an argument and I dont believe that they are sos stupid

Lets say a couple of jets, then it would maybe take a couple of years to educate these pilots.

But less than 5 years for sure

Then what? When turkey comes to attack PKK, we strike back?

Who said that?

It's not that simple. First of all we will be the enemy of nato, US,

Turkey has not the right to walk into someones other country and attack if so than Nato US has nothing to do with it.

secondly iraq must give us the authority, coz we're an semi-autonomy.

Who cares of Iraq man. Who gives even a shit to the constitution so we should? And where in the constitution is said that we are not allowed to buy Jets?

Even if we do control everything in S.K, iran and turkey would crush us, what you are doing is repeading our history .

I love your Irony. Going your way is the best think to repeat the history of Mahabad republic.

Iran has actully made it's own jets, didn't we see in the infrastructure topic a kurdish made airplane?

Show me which one Iran has made. And LOl at your Kurdish made airplane not warplane are you even aware how different these two things are?

Well the engine was german. And so are the iranian made jets,

Jets this time russian engine, that's what i mean.

There you go. And you really thing that Germany or Russia would sell you there good engines? Man stop dreaming. This here is not even about better buy or make your own Jets. its about taking some preparation. Later we can make our own Jets all day long.

Another thing, the only reason iran and turkey has to attack us is if we attack them,

Man many post of yours really sound like that of an agent trying to convince us to stay weak. Are you kidding me? Iran, Turkey is destroying your villages since years they are flying over your area so what exactly are you talking about? open your eyes.

then they will have a reason and then they will destroy everything.

A reason for what? dude do you think it is that simple to move into someone elses country and destroy everything? Iran has its weakest periode in history. And buying Jets is not a reason for attack.

Well we don't afford it, do you get it?

Who are you to tell me that you dont affort it?.

KRG even spends more than the budget. Right now iran, turkey will never attack us incase they don't have an reason.

your arguments are very weak and only based on assumptions. If we go your way we would put our fate into turkish and Iranians mercy. Is that actually what you want?
`

Just because PJAK, PKK are hiding in S.K means iran and tueky can invade the cities?

They are inviding your area and destroying your villages so for Gods sake what are you talking about? Your arguments make no sense.

NO, cause we have nothing to do with them, barzani talked to turkey about it himself. That's what i mean with realistic. Why not wait coz for the moment, iran and turkey won't do a shit to S.K except killing som guerillas maybe. Wait untill we get kirkuk, get the hands of the oil. Then we can declare ourself independent.

Declare yourself independence and think Turkey and Iran will stay silent why you dont have any aircraft to stay against them. Its not about winning or loosing a war. IF you have a Air force with which you can create much damage this alone is enough argument to make your enemy think twice about a war. The world has changed there is no winner in wars.

Code: Select all

Then with an boming economy we can buy many of these toys if you like to. What do you think means with an budget? IT's an amount of money, but we can't spend the money on things we like. Just look at your own budget, lets say you get 10 000 dollars each month. Can you spend it on things you like? NO, you have bills, payments, electricty and other stuff. MAybe you get some over to rent a film or something, and in this case KRG don't get any money over.

The budget is more than enough. Your arguments make only sense if you want that KRG makes you a living like Kings. You almost talk like one of those persons who go demonstrate for too cold coffee.

So you want to be an arab, buying everything true oil? No own technology etc. Where is the pride? Man we are kurds, for us the pride, honor is the most importent.

Yeah too much pride to go work. Dude stop making useless arguments. Who says it is impossible to make your own warplanes later if you have bought some as preparation?

I could use all your arguments for buying airplanes and even make more but I am too silly now to do so.


Dont take my harsh words as too personal. Thats my way to argue if I dont take arguments for too real.

[/quote]


WTF happend to my answers? Gotta to it again

[unitedkurdistan]

thats not an argument and I dont believe that they are sos stupid

But KRG don't afford it. Don't you think i would love to see kurdish jets flying over Kurdistan with the kurdish flag on it? Do you really think KRG afford everything? That's the reason we have an freemarket. We aim on private.

But less than 5 years for sure.
Alot of things can happen under 5 years.

Who said that?
No one. Okey lets say we have an airforce and when turkey attacks for a reason, example: PKK is hiding in a village in S.K. And they kill innocent kurds. Shall we resist? Nothing will happen, do you really think turkey has some respect for us and do nothing about a turkish pilot? A single turkish soldier dead and the entire country cries of hate. We attack them with our small airforce, there they will have another reason to attack us. At this moment we can't harm turkey in war. We can only harm turkey, iran true economy. Stop importing, we have nothing to loose on it but they do.


Turkey has not the right to walk into someones other country and attack if so than Nato US has nothing to do with it.
They don't have the right still, have that stopped them before? Turkey is in nato and nato will do anything to protect natos borders. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ5aZouwxpU&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&hd=1   

There you have obama talking about it. The funny thing is that this is a video that alan has upploaded.

Who cares of Iraq man. Who gives even a shit to the constitution so we should? And where in the constitution is said that we are not allowed to buy Jets?
True, but if we don't follow the constitution we won't get kirkuk back.

I love your Irony. Going your way is the best think to repeat the history of Mahabad republic.
Who said Mahabad republic? Wekîl Mustafayev, the leader of the kurdish movements after armenian victory in Nagorno-Karabakh were the autonomy of red kurdistan once where. He acted when armenia was as strongest. Now turkey is as strongest.


Show me which one Iran has made. And LOl at your Kurdish made airplane not warplane are you even aware how different these two things are?
YEs, very different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeqeh In the near future, we can have our own warplanes, but why not right now? Just send som students to Canada or France to study jet technology.
There you go. And you really thing that Germany or Russia would sell you there good engines? Man stop dreaming. This here is not even about better buy or make your own Jets. its about taking some preparation. Later we can make our own Jets all day long.
Yes, but why right now? It is cheaper. Preparation for what? For a turkish attack on what?


Man many post of yours really sound like that of an agent trying to convince us to stay weak. Are you kidding me? Iran, Turkey is destroying your villages since years they are flying over your area so what exactly are you talking about? open your eyes.
So you are saying we are gonna send up 10 jets next time turkey or iran bombs a kurdish village? We will be in a war where we will not gain our goals but just loose stuff we have gained. Iran can easily send up to 5 million.



A reason for what? dude do you think it is that simple to move into someone elses country and destroy everything? Iran has its weakest periode in history. And buying Jets is not a reason for attack.
By attacking them with these jets will just give another reason along that PKK, PJAk is there. Iran can easily bring up to 5 million, almost the same number of the kurds living in S.K. Just look at iran-iraq war. When iran was as strongest in it's history it was the most powerfull empire in the world. So iran isn't really that weak if you think so. By the way it isn't in the weakest period. It was during war against russia it was weakest. What did the russians do to afghanistan, georgia, tjetjenia. It is very easy to destroy everything. Just look at US invasion in iraq.



your arguments are very weak and only based on assumptions. If we go your way we would put our fate into turkish and Iranians mercy. Is that actually what you want?
Why would we be put in turkish, iranian mercy if we havn't done them anything? If we go my way, then we would start getting kirkuk, becoming rich and start influencing N.K, W.K, E.K by trade, developing those ereas, spread propaganda. Educate etc. Then when we are powerfull enough, about 50 jets is good, lots of manpower from every kurdish part and start fighting. Both from inside the country and outside. It would be fucked up. KRG do spend more than the budget.


They are inviding your area and destroying your villages so for Gods sake what are you talking about? Your arguments make no sense.
Where are they destroying? Okey then lets put up arms now, we would only lose more on it. We can't do anything for the moment. It's hard to accept that. We can't beat iran and turkey for the moment. Why risk everything on something small? Why risk an airforce, and army, an people...... On something we can't win.

NO, cause we have nothing to do with them, barzani talked to turkey about it himself. That's what i mean with realistic. Why not wait coz for the moment, iran and turkey won't do a shit to S.K except killing som guerillas maybe. Wait untill we get kirkuk, get the hands of the oil. Then we can declare ourself independent.

Declare yourself independence and think Turkey and Iran will stay silent why you dont have any aircraft to stay against them. Its not about winning or loosing a war. IF you have a Air force with which you can create much damage this alone is enough argument to make your enemy think twice about a war. The world has changed there is no winner in wars.
It depends on the size of the airforce. Secondly, nothing can stop iran and turkey to protect it's border. Act wisely as salahaddin and not foolish. Aircraft won't change anything. Maybe we hit them good, still it won't be enough against turkey. Every turk is an facist, every turk will join the army. I now that iran will stay silent if we declare ourself independent. Man you speak as airforce is everything, everything we need is an airforce.


The budget is more than enough. Your arguments make only sense if you want that KRG makes you a living like Kings. You almost talk like one of those persons who go demonstrate for too cold coffee.
The budget is not enough. Still if it was, it would only be enough for a couple of old soviet planes.
Yeah too much pride to go work. Dude stop making useless arguments. Who says it is impossible to make your own warplanes later if you have bought some as preparation?
No one.

I could use all your arguments for buying airplanes and even make more but I am too silly now to do so.


Dont take my harsh words as too personal. Thats my way to argue if I dont take arguments for too real.[/quote][/quote]

[alan131210]

thats not an argument and I dont believe that they are sos stupid

But KRG don't afford it. Don't you think i would love to see kurdish jets flying over Kurdistan with the kurdish flag on it? Do you really think KRG afford everything? That's the reason we have an freemarket. We aim on private

dear KRG CAN afford jets F 16s Specially. and the calculation you gave is wrong.
peshmerga gets $500 a month not 1k and the number of peshmerga in the ministry of peshmerga is 42000 not 200k, the rest are financed by the parties themselves not KRG.
jets or no jets no one can attack us if we choose independent this is the 21st century the era of arab spring ,its not the era of empires. there is a UN and KRG is not an armed group it's a government and has 5 million people living there attacking it is attacking 5 million people look at the dictators killing their own people did they get away? what chance another country has killing another country 's citizens cos they chose and decided their fate ?? it will be done via a referendum so will be the voice of 5 million people and no one can attack that. some people are paranoid too much.
and buying weapon is constitutional. in 2008 KRG bought heavy to light armory and weapons via cargo plains for 3 days straight no one dared oppose it or stop it.

[Azamat]

@Kurdistano - Agreed.