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Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:29 pm

Kurdistano wrote:
kurd-sthanam wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:I already said Fayli is part of the Gorani language, but Kurd-Snthanam said no it isn't lol. I wonder why Khalori is not classed as a Pahliwani language though, since they are part of the Kurdish fayli tribes.


I know that mehrdad izady say this, but he is alone with saying this. allmost all kurdish and unkurdish historians and linguists agree that feyli, leki, kelhor is closer to kurmanci and sorani and not zazaki and hewrami. :-D



Which linguists say that please? Give me some names. Mehrdad Izady says basically what most big linguists and historians of our time say. Kelhurri is closer to Sorani while Laki build together with Hewrami the Gorani group. Lakis can understand Hewrami but they cant understand pretty much Sorani.

Exactly Sorani sounds alien to me, in both aspects. The words and the accent. Whilst Hewrami sounds much mroe familar. Though I sure you about Khaluri, I have heard Khaluri and it does sound like Sorani, but I have seen some identify as Fayli Kurds. Plus on Kurd Fayli site they belong to the Laki/Luri Kurds, well atleast that is how they are classified.
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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: kurd-sthanam » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:50 pm

Kurdistano wrote:

Which linguists say that please? Give me some names. Mehrdad Izady says basically what most big linguists and historians of our time say. Kelhurri is closer to Sorani while Laki build together with Hewrami the Gorani group. Lakis can understand Hewrami but they cant understand pretty much Sorani.


i postet 3 kurdish linguists/historian, jjmuner asked 3 times about it i replied 3 times and now you ask :-D yes maybe not leki, but mehrdad izady say that feyli belong to that same group with hewrami and zazaki, while feyli is clearly close to kelhori, kurmanci and sorani.

haha paul ludwig =)) is this who say zaza are not kurd?
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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:09 am

kurd-sthanam wrote:
Kurdistano wrote:

Which linguists say that please? Give me some names. Mehrdad Izady says basically what most big linguists and historians of our time say. Kelhurri is closer to Sorani while Laki build together with Hewrami the Gorani group. Lakis can understand Hewrami but they cant understand pretty much Sorani.


i postet 3 kurdish linguists/historian, jjmuner asked 3 times about it i replied 3 times and now you ask :-D yes maybe not leki, but mehrdad izady say that feyli belong to that same group with hewrami and zazaki, while feyli is clearly close to kelhori, kurmanci and sorani.

haha paul ludwig =)) is this who say zaza are not kurd?


Dude Feyli is simply the same as Kelhuri or a dialect of it. :-D Laki on the other hand is different to some extend. Could you please list the three linguists again?


No Paul Ludwig does not claim that Zaza are not Kurds he simply claims that zazaki and Hewramia re no dialects of "Kurdish proper"(which is Kurmanji according to him) and the Zaza and Turkish nationalists wrongly interpret what he says to use it for their goals.

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: kurd-sthanam » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:05 am

Kurdistano wrote:Dude Feyli is simply the same as Kelhuri or a dialect of it. :-D Laki on the other hand is different to some extend. Could you please list the three linguists again?


No Paul Ludwig does not claim that Zaza are not Kurds he simply claims that zazaki and Hewramia re no dialects of "Kurdish proper"(which is Kurmanji according to him) and the Zaza and Turkish nationalists wrongly interpret what he says to use it for their goals.


http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/41

in my point of view kurdish is more languages (4-5 languages), that are evolved from two dialects of old kurdish language.

Kurmanci
sorani
South kurdish
hewrami
zazaki
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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: hevalo27 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:39 am

kirmancki and hawrami are different languages as kurmanci, thats true and both languages are closer to caspian languages to mazanderani and gilaki,
but they are kurds, because kirmancki and kurmanci kurds mixxed since thousneds of years, noone can see a difference, like paul ludwig sayd.

in ethno-cultural point of view they are like kurmancs, they mixxed since thousends of years with kurmanc`s, they looks like kurmanc, they eat like kurmanc, they have the same culture like kurmanc, they have same customs and traditions, the same tails, the same religion (islam , alevi/ahle heq/ shabak), genetically their is no difference between kurmancs and kirmancks because of long mixxing, that makes us all to kurds, so kurmanci and kirmancki are both kurdish languages, very easy.

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:56 pm

kurd-sthanam wrote:
Kurdistano wrote:

Which linguists say that please? Give me some names. Mehrdad Izady says basically what most big linguists and historians of our time say. Kelhurri is closer to Sorani while Laki build together with Hewrami the Gorani group. Lakis can understand Hewrami but they cant understand pretty much Sorani.


i postet 3 kurdish linguists/historian, jjmuner asked 3 times about it i replied 3 times and now you ask :-D yes maybe not leki, but mehrdad izady say that feyli belong to that same group with hewrami and zazaki, while feyli is clearly close to kelhori, kurmanci and sorani.

haha paul ludwig =)) is this who say zaza are not kurd?

What are you talking about? Do you even know what Fayli is? Fayli is Laki. Laki is just a umbrella term.
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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:59 pm

Kurdistano wrote:
kurd-sthanam wrote:
Kurdistano wrote:

Which linguists say that please? Give me some names. Mehrdad Izady says basically what most big linguists and historians of our time say. Kelhurri is closer to Sorani while Laki build together with Hewrami the Gorani group. Lakis can understand Hewrami but they cant understand pretty much Sorani.


i postet 3 kurdish linguists/historian, jjmuner asked 3 times about it i replied 3 times and now you ask :-D yes maybe not leki, but mehrdad izady say that feyli belong to that same group with hewrami and zazaki, while feyli is clearly close to kelhori, kurmanci and sorani.

haha paul ludwig =)) is this who say zaza are not kurd?


Dude Feyli is simply the same as Kelhuri or a dialect of it. :-D Laki on the other hand is different to some extend. Could you please list the three linguists again?


No Paul Ludwig does not claim that Zaza are not Kurds he simply claims that zazaki and Hewramia re no dialects of "Kurdish proper"(which is Kurmanji according to him) and the Zaza and Turkish nationalists wrongly interpret what he says to use it for their goals.

Bro Faylis are Laki, and we come under the category of Lak Kurds. I don't know about other Fayli Kurdish tribes, but Ali Shirwanis, Moosis, Malik Shahis and Zand all are Laks.
I think your getting mixed up bewteen Khaluri and Fayli/Laki, as Khelrui is the one with more of a Sorani accent, whilst Fayli is clsoer to Hewrami, with a Kurmanci influence.
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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:20 pm

hevalo27 wrote:kirmancki and hawrami are different languages as kurmanci, thats true and both languages are closer to caspian languages to mazanderani and gilaki,
but they are kurds, because kirmancki and kurmanci kurds mixxed since thousneds of years, noone can see a difference, like paul ludwig sayd.

in ethno-cultural point of view they are like kurmancs, they mixxed since thousends of years with kurmanc`s, they looks like kurmanc, they eat like kurmanc, they have the same culture like kurmanc, they have same customs and traditions, the same tails, the same religion (islam , alevi/ahle heq/ shabak), genetically their is no difference between kurmancs and kirmancks because of long mixxing, that makes us all to kurds, so kurmanci and kirmancki are both kurdish languages, very easy.



Thats not true and only claimed by Zaza and Turkish nationalists. Stop repeating BS you hear on the net but inform yourself by reading books. Thats really annoying. I have never seen a linguist claiming that Zazaki has closer relationship to Caspian dialcts. Jostz GIppert over 10 years ago assumed it might have connection to Parthian but even he now refuted this. Gernot Windfuhr the biggest linguist of our time sees Kirmancki as Medic with clear Scythian substrata. Genetically the Zaza seem to be a mix of Eastern and Anatolian Kurds. What indicates that they moved from East Kurdistan and mixed with Anatolian Kurds.

So please stop with this bullshit. Its really start to annoy me and even more to see Kurds repeating this same bullshit in such a knowing tone.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... anTree.svg



Kurmanji is probably the closest language to Kirmancki as well Hewrami only Baluchi seems to belong to this close group too. The caspian dialects on the other hand are something different.

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: hevalo27 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:32 pm

bro, i hope you are right, im not an linguist and can only repeat what linguists say.
but that wasnt what i want say

my point was, its not important what they say about us kurds, my point was this

What indicates that they moved from East Kurdistan and mixed with Anatolian Kurds.


from me

in ethno-cultural point of view they are like kurmancs, they mixxed since thousends of years with kurmanc`s, they looks like kurmanc, they eat like kurmanc, they have the same culture like kurmanc, they have same customs and traditions, the same tails, the same religion (islam , alevi/ahle heq/ shabak), genetically their is no difference between kurmancs and kirmancks because of long mixxing, that makes us all to kurds, so kurmanci and kirmancki are both kurdish languages, very easy.

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:37 pm

hevalo27 wrote:bro, i hope you are right, im not an linguist and can only repeat what linguists say.
but that wasnt what i want say


Good to know just that linguists never said this, only Jost Gippert once made a map which indicated some relationship between Kirmancki and Caspian dialects but this was more like an idea. Even he refuses this idea now. All linguists clearly seee KIrmancki to be of older Northwest Iranic substrata probably from Medic with Scythian input. The thing is, Kirmancki is the same as Kurmanci. Even the name indicates it. Just that KIrmancki could preserve the proto "Kurmanci" language better. We could simply call Kirmancki "Old KUrmanci" and the today known Kurmanci as "new Kurmanci".

my point was, its not important what they say about us kurds, my point was this

What indicates that they moved from East Kurdistan and mixed with Anatolian Kurds.


from me

in ethno-cultural point of view they are like kurmancs, they mixxed since thousends of years with kurmanc`s, they looks like kurmanc, they eat like kurmanc, they have the same culture like kurmanc, they have same customs and traditions, the same tails, the same religion (islam , alevi/ahle heq/ shabak), genetically their is no difference between kurmancs and kirmancks because of long mixxing, that makes us all to kurds, so kurmanci and kirmancki are both kurdish languages, very easy.



I agree but they did not mix up with Kurmanjis, they are Kurmanjis from the East and mixed up with Kurmanjis in the West.

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: hevalo27 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:51 pm

Kurdistano wrote: Even the name indicates it. Just that KIrmancki could preserve the proto "Kurmanci" language better. We could simply call Kirmancki "Old KUrmanci" and the today known Kurmanci as "new Kurmanci".

I agree but they did not mix up with Kurmanjis, they are Kurmanjis from the East and mixed up with Kurmanjis in the West.


nice theorie, but the graphic in your link is false :-D
kurdish must be called kurmanci and Median = proto kurdish.
even balochi has kurdish roots, but they are not kurds.

only Jost Gippert once made a map which indicated some relationship between Kirmancki and Caspian dialects but this was more like an idea. Even he refuses this idea now.


hmm good to know, you are right, i had it from him

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:00 pm

hevalo27 wrote:
Kurdistano wrote: Even the name indicates it. Just that KIrmancki could preserve the proto "Kurmanci" language better. We could simply call Kirmancki "Old KUrmanci" and the today known Kurmanci as "new Kurmanci".

I agree but they did not mix up with Kurmanjis, they are Kurmanjis from the East and mixed up with Kurmanjis in the West.


nice theorie, but the graphic in your link is false :-D
kurdish must be called kurmanci and Median = proto kurdish.
even balochi has kurdish roots, but they are not kurds.

only Jost Gippert once made a map which indicated some relationship between Kirmancki and Caspian dialects but this was more like an idea. Even he refuses this idea now.


hmm good to know, you are right, i had it from him


Thats because most of the world still (falsely) views Kurmanci as "Kurdish proper" because most KUrds speak this language. To make the relation between Kurdish dialects/Languages clearer.

At first there was Proto Kurdish from which Proto Kurmanci and Proto Gorani derived. Proto Kurmanci as well Proto Gorani split into two. Proto Kurmanci into Kurmanci and Kirmancki, while Kirmancki was the one which was closer to Proto Kurmanci because it could preserve better the old vocabulary and had less loudshifts. Proto Gorani split into Hewrami and Proto Laki/Kelhuri/Feyli of which Hewrami was the one which stayed closer to Proto Gorani because it preserved better the old vocabulary and had less loudshifts.

Than a Group of Kurmancis (new Kurmancis) moved into Goran areas and shifted the language spoken and a new dialect/language was born, the Sorani which is by loudshifts closer to new Kurmanci but still shows its Hewrami roots by Grammer and other things I dont want to list.

Sorani is most probably the youngest Kurdish dialect which developed some 500-700 years ago.

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: hevalo27 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:12 pm

Kurdistano wrote:
Thats because most of the world still (falsely) views Kurmanci as "Kurdish proper" because most KUrds speak this language. To make the relation between Kurdish dialects/Languages clearer.

At first there was Proto Kurdish from which Proto Kurmanci and Proto Gorani derived. Proto Kurmanci as well Proto Gorani split into two. Proto Kurmanci into Kurmanci and Kirmancki, while Kirmancki was the one which was closer to Proto Kurmanci because it could preserve better the old vocabulary and had less loudshifts. Proto Gorani split into Hewrami and Proto Laki/Kelhuri/Feyli of which Hewrami was the one which stayed closer to Proto Gorani because it preserved better the old vocabulary and had less loudshifts.

Than a Group of Kurmancis (new Kurmancis) moved into Goran areas and shifted the language spoken and a new dialect/language was born, the Sorani which is by loudshifts closer to new Kurmanci but still shows its Hewrami roots by Grammer and other things I dont want to list.

Sorani is most probably the youngest Kurdish dialect which developed some 500-700 years ago.


that is exactly my view. the foreign countreys must finish to call kurmanci "kurdish".
thats irritating, so all stupid zazaist from exile come with zazaki is not a dialect of kurdish, but they mean kurmanci.
yes thats true, kirmancki is not a dialect of kurmanci, but its a dialect of proto-kurdish, like kurmanci

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: hevalo27 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:53 pm

kurdistano, can you give me some book recommendation from newest studies about the kurdish language?

the most actual books from recognized linguists or an actual link who i can read,
you are from germany, right? actual books or homepages in german would be nice

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Re: Kurdistan needs united official Kurdish language

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:02 pm

hevalo27 wrote:kurdistano, can you give me some book recommendation from newest studies about the kurdish language?

the most actual books from recognized linguists or an actual link who i can read,
you are from germany, right? actual books or homepages in german would be nice


Well as far as I know, The three most respected linguists are Paul Ludwig, Kreyenborg and for most Gernot Windfuhr. Kreyenborg and Gernot Windfuhr consider Zaza as Kurds and Kirmancki as a Kurdic language, while Ludwig Paul counts the Zaza as part of the Kurds and says its impossible to separate the Zaza from Kurds but he considers Kirmancki as separate language and not a dialect of Kurdish Proper (which he falsely thinks is Kurmanci).

I heard about a new book by Ferdinan Hennerbichler where he works together with Gernot Windfuhr and another Russian archaeologist who is also very famous in his branch unfortunately I have forgotten his name. I think the name of the book was something like "the origin of the Kurds".

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