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question about ezafet

Discuss about language(s) in English

PostAuthor: heval » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:30 am

cheryl wrote:heval, about the dengên cêwî and imagining an "h" next to the aspirated letters, i will try that. i assume that when you say "par" pronounced "phar" you are not meaning that the "ph" is pronounced like "f", but like a "p" with an "h" shadowing it. with this explanation, i can see that dr. chyet's use of the apostrophe is probably more appropriate than the underlining or not-underlining.

there are certain sounds in russian that are totally foreign to english speakers, but i managed to learn them from intense mimicking of my teacher, intense listening of tapes and lots and lots of practice. i think it might be difficult to distinguish the dengên cêwî sounds from songs or from listening to news in kurdish . . . maybe i will check dibistanakurdi to listen for these.

thank you for the explanation, heval. at least this gives me something to think about and pay attention to when i am learning the words.


You're welcome... Ser Çaw ! :D

Yes, I was hoping the "Ph" example wouldn't confuse you. That is exactly what I meant: the "par" pronounced "phar" is pronounced like a "p" with an "h" shadowing it.

After speaking to a few fluent Spanish-speakers, I do not think we can make the comparison of dengên cêwî with any Spanish sounds. I think these sounds are pretty unique to the Kurdish language... but what makes them so unique is that the same letters are used for two different sounds (aspirated/unaspirated) when speaking. Kind of confusing but I hope my explanation helped you out at least a little bit, Cheryl :)


And here is some extra info that you might be interested in:

I did a little bit more research and found out through Chyet's writings that "the aspirated/non-aspirated consonantal pairs [dengên cêwî] are regularly distinguished by the Soviet scholars and in a few works by modern linguists. The Soviet scholars, many of whom also know Armenian, have no doubt been influenced by the existence of this feature in Armenian as well."
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PostAuthor: Diri » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:02 pm

Okey... So I was wrong about the Spanish... Maybe?

Well - I was thinking about the "c" in for example "how are you?"...


Hespê boz - is a term in it self... We say "sipî" for white - but Hespê boz (a white horse) and Hespê shêr (a golden brown horse - "shêr" as in "lion" - ergo a horse which has color resemblance to a lion) - it only shows that horses are an important part of Kurdish culture... :roll:

Hey by the way... Will it shock you if I say that "The Arabian horse" is actually a Kurdish horse...? Shocked? I was at first... But after an explanation - (in e.g. where "Arabian horses" REALY are from) I found it to be more true than calling the horse Arabic... Because the horse - is actually from the Zagros mountains - that part of Kurdistan which is called Lorestan, Kermanshah etc...
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PostAuthor: Piling » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:20 pm

Boz is not dapple-grey for a horse ? The horse of Mamê Alan calls Bozê Rawan, and Roger lescot translated it by "Le Gris qui va l'amble" or The Grey which ambles".
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PostAuthor: Diri » Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:21 pm

Piling wrote:Boz is not dapple-grey for a horse ? The horse of Mamê Alan calls Bozê Rawan, and Roger lescot translated it by "Le Gris qui va l'amble" or The Grey which ambles".



Yes yes yes - Boz means a "Greywhitehorse"... Okey... :shock: But that is only because a white horse is bound to be somewhat grey... As the rule goes...
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PostAuthor: cheryl » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:12 pm

sipas, heval, it does help, at least in the way i think about it. the more i think about it, the more confusing the "underlining" seems to me. i think i will start using the apostrophe like dr. chyet. another thing to remember is context, i.e. usage of the following in context: pîr', p'ir, p'ir' (old woman, very, bridge--i hope those are correct with the apostrophes), or with any of the other examples in this thread, the context of sentence and conversation will also help to determine meaning.

it is also very interesting to know that the armenians have the same sounds.

don't worry Dîrî, it was a good thought to think of a comparison with spanish. it's always good to compare with something you know before trying to explain something totally different.

and thank you for the horse explanations and history. after thinking about it, it isn't really a shock that these are kurdish horses. the kurds are well-known as excellent horsemen. besides, how could horses come out of the deserts of arabia? they thrive in pasture lands and high plateaus like those in kurdistan.

who can forget the famous photo of barzanî namirî on his hespê boz? :D

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