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question about ezafet

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question about ezafet

PostAuthor: cheryl » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:40 am

i have a question about ezafet when i want to describe a noun with more than one adjective.

for example, if i wanted to say in kurmancî, "the long, sharp knife," would i say it like this:

kêra dirêj û tûj?

what if i wanted to say, "my long, sharp knife?" where would i put the "min?"

thanks in advance.

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question about ezafet

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PostAuthor: abdur » Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:34 am

i would say: kêr a minî dirêj û tûj
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PostAuthor: heval » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:50 am

abdur wrote:i would say: kêr a minî dirêj û tûj


However, be very careful when using the same phrase with Soranî speakers because this can interpreted as something very vulgar...
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PostAuthor: Diri » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:18 pm

Heval... That is "Kîr"... Not "Kêr"... :shock:

Ps- There is this thing in Kurdish - we have two different sounds for the same letter... I am sure you know what I mean... :roll:

Yes Cheryl that is the way to go... As my brothers have pointed out...

Kêra min ya dirêj û tûj - is the same way of saying it... Except more gramatically correct... Because we are talking about a specific knife we need to stress that it is "ya dirêj û tûj"... Although I see Abdur did that too - in his own dialect obviously "Kêr a minî dirêj û tûj"... But standard speaking - for Kurmancî - it should be "ya"... Instead of "î"... :roll: Sorry if I am being critical... :twisted:
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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:42 pm

heval wrote:However, be very careful when using the same phrase with Soranî speakers because this can interpreted as something very vulgar...


ha ha ha I laughed to my ass...you are funny heval..ha ha ha
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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:10 pm

by the way for sure , cheryl knows kurmanji more than me...because I couldnt even undresand what she says in kurdish :oops:

in my dialect of kurdish the it is ---> kard^ek dir^ejo t^ij .

and this proves how wide the kurdish language is.
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PostAuthor: heval » Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:13 pm

dyaoko wrote:ha ha ha I laughed to my ass...you are funny heval..ha ha ha


Diri wrote:Heval... That is "Kîr"... Not "Kêr"... :shock:



No, I was serious my friends ! In some Soranî accents, that is the way it is pronounced. I was only warning her... :?
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PostAuthor: cheryl » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:57 am

thank you all for your replies.

hehehehe. . . kîr is in baran's dictionary . . . you learn something new everyday!! :P thanks for the warning, heval. i will not discuss knives with soranîs :D

i bet this is why they changed kêr in dyaoko's dialect to kardêk, to avoid any possible embarrassment :P

so i'm going to go with "kêra dirêj û tûj" as correct for that manner of expression.

now, as for the ya, Dîrî, does that take the ending of the definite noun or is it always ya?

for example, would i say kurê min qelew û teral (my fat, lazy boy)? or kurên min yên qelew û teral? or would i continue to use ya?

(as for abdur's example, maybe somewhere along the line of using the language the 'y' fell out and left 'î' by itself and it ended up blending into 'min.' i can see where in speaking, some of these 'y's might get swallowed.)

i made this list of direct case headnouns with modifiers, and i would be happy for corrections:

the fat, lazy boy = kurê qelew û teral
a fat, lazy boy = kurekî qelew û teral
some fat, lazy boys = kurine qelew û teral
the fat, lazy boys = kurên qelew û teral

for oblique case:

the nice, round apple = sêvê xweş û girover
a nice, round apple = sêvekê xweş û girover
some nice, round apples = sêvinê xweş û girover
the nice round apples = sêvan xweş û girover

Ps- There is this thing in Kurdish - we have two different sounds for the same letter... I am sure you know what I mean...


Dîrî, are you talking about the aspirated/unaspirated letters, ç, k, p, t, r? baran rizgar mentions this and give the following example:

ker/donkey with unaspirated k and r--he also refers to this as "accented" k and r

ker/deaf with aspirated k and r. he underlines the letters when they are aspirated.

what exactly is he talking about?

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PostAuthor: heval » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:34 am

cheryl wrote:ker/donkey with unaspirated k and r--he also refers to this as "accented" k and r

ker/deaf with aspirated k and r. he underlines the letters when they are aspirated.

what exactly is he talking about?


This is one of the few problems with the Latînî script...what you are referring to, Cheryl, is dengên cêwî...

Using the example of Ker vs. Ker... The underlined 'r' is rolled as oppose to the regular 'r', which is not rolled. This means that donkey is pronounced Ker while deaf is pronounced Kerr. (You have to kind of extend the 'rrr' sound, or roll the 'r' like rrr, when saying deaf.)

As far as the 'k' sound goes...how can I explain that to you in text? Never realized how difficult that could be :? Perhaps Dîrî can explain the difference between the unaspirated and aspirated 'k'...
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PostAuthor: Diri » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:53 am

i made this list of direct case headnouns with modifiers, and i would be happy for corrections:

the fat, lazy boy = kurê qelew û teral
a fat, lazy boy = kurekî qelew û teral
some fat, lazy boys = kurine qelew û teral
the fat, lazy boys = kurên qelew û teral

for oblique case:

the nice, round apple = sêvê xweş û girover
a nice, round apple = sêvekê xweş û girover
some nice, round apples = sêvinê xweş û girover
the nice round apples = sêvan xweş û girover


Nice lists... BUT you must change one part of them - the same part in both actually...

In Kurdish when talking about "some" we also mean specific "some"... "hindek" means some in Kurmancî... "Hindek sêvên xwesh û girover/xirolik ("xir"="round"- "xirolik"="roundish" as we say in my dialect)...

And about dengên cêwî...

I tried to think of examples in English where you have this phenomenon... Since I was in a hurry when I wrote this I didn't come up with much...


However - that is the only way we can demonstrate it's use - by showing the paralel in English... So Heval - I am sure you are more suiting person to find the right sounds... Or words... You live not TOO far away from Arizona... You should have "similar" sounds... :P
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PostAuthor: cheryl » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:42 pm

about the dengên cêwî. . . baran mentions the rolled r's as opposed to the unrolled r's, so i understood that and it makes sense. it was the other letters in question that i was curious about. i think these sounds may be totally different than anything in english. . .

thanks for the information on 'hindek," Dîrî. it wasn't mentioned in the section on "yek," "-ek," "-yek," "-in," "-yin." and baran does translate, for example, the word "mamosteyin" as "(some) teachers."

so i will say, "hindek kurên qelew û teral" for "some fat, lazy boys" in the direct case and "hindek sêvan xweş û girover/xirolik" for the oblique case.

now, about that ya thing. . . is it always ya or does it change ending to match the noun it refers to?

for example, would i say "kurê min yê qelew û teral" or "kurê min ya qelew û teral?"

would i say "kurên min yên qelew û teral" or "kurên min ya qelew û teral?"

for the oblique case, would i say "sêvê min yê xweş û girover" or "sêvê min ya xweş û girover?"

i ask this because it seemed to me, from Dîrî's explanation, that the "ya" referred back to kêra because of the ending of the word, kêr.

i want to make sure i understand ezafet before going too much further, because it appears to me that it is an extremely important point of kurdish grammar.

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PostAuthor: Diri » Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:29 am

cheryl wrote:about the dengên cêwî. . . baran mentions the rolled r's as opposed to the unrolled r's, so i understood that and it makes sense. it was the other letters in question that i was curious about. i think these sounds may be totally different than anything in english. . .

thanks for the information on 'hindek," Dîrî. it wasn't mentioned in the section on "yek," "-ek," "-yek," "-in," "-yin." and baran does translate, for example, the word "mamosteyin" as "(some) teachers."

so i will say, "hindek kurên qelew û teral" for "some fat, lazy boys" in the direct case and "hindek sêvan xweş û girover/xirolik" for the oblique case.

now, about that ya thing. . . is it always ya or does it change ending to match the noun it refers to?

for example, would i say "kurê min yê qelew û teral" or "kurê min ya qelew û teral?"

would i say "kurên min yên qelew û teral" or "kurên min ya qelew û teral?"

for the oblique case, would i say "sêvê min yê xweş û girover" or "sêvê min ya xweş û girover?"

i ask this because it seemed to me, from Dîrî's explanation, that the "ya" referred back to kêra because of the ending of the word, kêr.

i want to make sure i understand ezafet before going too much further, because it appears to me that it is an extremely important point of kurdish grammar.


GOD how exhausting... :shock:

Okey;

It is called
"hindek sêvên xweş û girover/xirolik" for the oblique case.


And that "Ya" thing - it changes from noun to noun and person to thing...

Mamoste yê min - a MALE TEACHER...
Mamoste ya min - a FEMALE TEACHER...

Mala min ya sipî - my white house...
Derê min yê sor - my red door...

See the connection? When the word ends with "ê" the possessive noun will be "yê" and "ya" when it ends with "a"... :wink:

More examples:

Zawa yê te - your groom (groom is a masculine word)

Buka te ya shirîn - your sweet bride...

Dara mezin ya di baxê/hewsha te da - The large three in your garden...

Destên te yên mezin - your big large hands....

Hespê te yê boz - your white horse...

Chume ser kanya xwe ya Shino - I went to my well in Shino...

LOL - I am coming up with funy things now...

I'll keep going if you need me to... :wink:

You are doing a GREAT job, Cheryl - I am very impressed...
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PostAuthor: heval » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:24 am

cheryl wrote:about the dengên cêwî. . . baran mentions the rolled r's as opposed to the unrolled r's, so i understood that and it makes sense. it was the other letters in question that i was curious about. i think these sounds may be totally different than anything in english. . .


Okay, well dengên cêwî is pretty unique to the Kurdish language. The difference between the two "k"s, for example, is simply how they are described: aspirated and unaspirated. When pronouncing the aspirated "k", for example, you have to put some breath into it. (It's difficult to explain, but I hope this makes sense.)

Cheryl, one way to think of it would be to put an "h" next to the aspirated letters... for example:

The word Par, meaning last year...and the word, Par, meaning share. The word Par (last year) is pronounced like Par while Par (share) (aspirated) pronounced Phar.

However, becareful...the difference in sound between Par and Par is very subtle. Therefore, do not put much emphasis on that "h" breath sound.

(What I like about Chyet's dictionary is that he puts an apostrophie after the aspirated letter (instead of the underlining of unaspirated sounds), which is another way to look at it: P'ar vs. Par.)


If you need more examples for me to go through or if this just doesn't make sense, let me know. I will try again to explain. We will have to resort to another way of explaining if text isn't sufficient :D
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PostAuthor: Diri » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:29 am

Brother - I think the solution lies in comparison to Spanish... Because from what I have read - Spanish is that language which is closest to Kurdish; phonetically speaking...

So if you have any examples from Spanish I think it will be easier... Cheryl speaks (some?) Spanish - from what I know...

I would have tried to explain had it not been that I knew I would mispell the Spanish words... :oops:
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PostAuthor: cheryl » Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:00 am

Dîrî writes:

GOD how exhausting... :shock:


GOOD! now you know how it feels to be a teacher :shock: :shock: :shock:

anyway. . . okay, Dîrî, about the ends of the y-- thing matching the endings of the nouns, that's what i thought, but wasn't sure. it makes sense though, since the y-- is referring back tot he noun. thank you for clearing that up :D

(you use "boz" for white in shikakî?)

heval, about the dengên cêwî and imagining an "h" next to the aspirated letters, i will try that. i assume that when you say "par" pronounced "phar" you are not meaning that the "ph" is pronounced like "f", but like a "p" with an "h" shadowing it. with this explanation, i can see that dr. chyet's use of the apostrophe is probably more appropriate than the underlining or not-underlining.

there are certain sounds in russian that are totally foreign to english speakers, but i managed to learn them from intense mimicking of my teacher, intense listening of tapes and lots and lots of practice. i think it might be difficult to distinguish the dengên cêwî sounds from songs or from listening to news in kurdish . . . maybe i will check dibistanakurdi to listen for these.

thank you for the explanation, heval. at least this gives me something to think about and pay attention to when i am learning the words.

Dîrî, about spanish being close phonetically to kurdish. . . i think the vowels in kurdish are more complex. spanish vowels are very straightforward and plain, but kurdish vowels are different. . . to me the kurdish "a" sounds totally different. so does the kurdish "e." spanish vowels are like israeli hebrew vowels, which makes sense i suppose because israeli pronunciation is sephardic (sefarad=spain in hebrew).

as for consonants, the only ones i can think of that make distinctive kurdish sounds is the spanish "j" which is pronounced similar to the kurdish "x."

still, when i think about the dengên cêwî, i can't think of a similarity in spanish. i think these sounds must be uniquely kurdish.

if you are worried about misspelling a spanish word, Dîrî, tell me the english equivalent and i will know the spanish for it. then i will know what sound you mean.

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