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Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

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Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:41 pm

dil = from Middle Persian dil, Old Persian *drd, pure Kurdish word: zil (from Hewramî zil, Zazaki: zerrî), root: Parthian: zird, Avesta: zirid-
dest = from Old Persian "deste", pure kurdish word: zest (from Avesta: zeste)
derya = from Middle Persian deryâp, pure kurdish word: zirye (Avesta: zreyeh)
dost = from Middle Persian: dôst, pure kurdish word: zost (Avesta: zeoşt-, typical eo > o change, as in Avesta reoche > Kurdish: roj)
gotin = from Middle Persian: guften, historic persian verb, pure kurmanci word: bêtin (Shex Bizinî dialect, compare Kelhuri: wetin -wej-)

Compare the historical Northwest/East - and Southwest-Splitting:

Avesta: zeste, zirid-, -zān-, zāmāter, ezêm, zeoşt-, zerenye-, zreyeh, mez
OldPersian: deste-, *drd, -dān-, dāmātər, edem, deuştā, derenye-, dreyeh, med-
Kurmanjî: dest, dil, zanîn, zava, ez, dost, zêr, zirye, mezin
English: hand, heart, know, bridegroom, i, buddy, gold, ocean, big

gurg= from Middle Persian: gurg, pure kurmannjî / soranî word: birg (Old Iranian v > Kurdish b, Old Iranian e > Kurdish i)
gul = from Middle Persian: gul, pure kurmannjî / soranî word: bil (Old Iranian v > Kurdish b, Old Iranian e > Kurdish i)
guherîn / gorîn = from middle persian gertîten ( > gurtîten), pure kurmanjî / soranî word: biherîn (Old Iranian v > Kurdish b, Old Iranian e > Kurdish i)

Compare the Old Iranian v > *, e > * shift:

Old Iranian: ber-, ker-, mer-, peres-, teres-, versne
Kurmanji: bird, kird, mird, pirs, tirs, birsî,
Middle Persian: burd, kerd, murd, purs, ters, gursne
Farsi: bord, kerd, mord, pors, ters, gorosne
Zazaki: berd, kerd, merd, pers, ters, veyşan
English: bring, do, die, ask, fear, hungry

Old Iranian: verd, verk
Middle Persian: gul, gurg
Zazaki: vil (<*verr), verg
Pure Kurmanji / Sorani: bil, birg
English: flower, wolf

Look also to Paul Ludwig to understand the southwestiranian- and northwestiranian loudshifts. The developing v > g is a pure southwestiranian developing.:

http://zazaki.de/englisch/articels/Paul-1998-Zaza.pdf

bilind= from Middle Persian: bulend (Old Persian: berd- (+ent), pure kurdish word: berz (from Sorani, South Kurdish, Zazaki, Hewrami, root: Avesta: berz- (+ent), again SW and NW d-z splitting)
= from Middle Persian: sî (Old Persian: chî), pure kurdish word: Hirê (from Zazaki: Hîrê < Parthian: hrê < Avesta: thri-)
sîh= from Middle Persian: sîh (Old Persian: chî-), pure kurdish word: Hirês (from Zazaki: Hîrês < Parthian: hrê- < Avesta: thri-)

Southwestiranian develping: thr > ch > s
Northwestiranian developing: thr > hr
Proto Iranian Word for "three": thre-

deh= from Middle Persian: deh (Old Persian: dee), pure kurdish word: Des (from Zazaki: Des < Avesta: dese)

Old Persian does los Proto-Aryan "s" loud and convert dese to dee, then Middle Persian add "h" after "de".

çar= from Middle Persian: çihar , pure kurdish word: çiwar (from Sorani, Hewrami etc., root Parthian: çefr)
çihil= from Middle Persian: çihil , pure kurdish word: çiwares (from Zazaki:çewres, Parthian: çeferst )

Updating:

zindî = from New Persian: "zinde" (Middle Persian: "ziw "- "live" steme), pure kurdish word: jindî
erzan = from Middle Persian: "erzân", pure kurdish word: erjan (like in Southern Zazaki: erjan)

The northwest developing: Old Iranic ç/c > c/j
Southwestiranic developing: Old Iranic ç/c > z
In Middle Persian: z, Parthian: j, Avesta and Old Persian: c

Like in: roj vs. roz, jin vs. zen etc.

(look also to Paul Ludwigs document)

All examples are linguistic proofed. You can ask experts like Emanoel Kurdistani.
Last edited by Johny Bravo on Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:37 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:45 am

You are right. It is interesting to recognize loanwords and find their pure forms.
Sorani uses ''zerya'', besides derya.
it also uses'' witin''/''wutin'', besides gutin.
gul in sorani is used with a hard l (gull).



I'ed like to add that there are also a big number of northwestern loanwords in Persian.
zar (gold), zemestan/zimistan (winter), shahr (city), etc.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:53 pm

Yes, there are also many northwestiranian loanwords in persian.

"witin" (wetin is more right) in Sorani is probably from Kelhuri. Anyway the Sorani-Speakers have an own non-iranic steme for "say" in the presense time.

It is "le", in "min delem". Its probably an Urartu influence.

The pure Sorani verb steme was "baj": "min debajim" (Proto-Sorani) and "i've said" was in Proto-Sorani: min batim.

Its a northern kurmanji process to change â > into ê. Baj, which is comes from parthian "vâj", will be in Kurmanci bêj.

Like in "gelên me" instead of "gelan me" in the izafe plural etc. etc.

The pure northkurmanj-word was: bêtin (see the presense steme: bêj). Many of the Shex Bizini Clan do use "bêtin" in North Kurmanji still today.

Compare also the logic in Zazaki and Kelhuri:

Zazaki: -vac- = presense steme, vatene = to say in infnitive.
Kelhuri: -wej- = presense, wetin = to say in infinitive.

The "t" defines only the past time. In Parthian: -vâj = presense steme, vâxten = to say in infnitive. This "x" in vâxten was a relict from proto-indoeurpean "k" (in *wek), which changes in the past time to "X" and in presense time to "CH" > then to c (zazaki) > then to j (kurdish).

Northwestiranian language do lose this "x" or change it to "h". As in Kurmanci: pehtin = to cook, which comes from a proto-version: pexten. Which comes from proto-indoeropean *pekw and is in relation with english "cook".

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:46 pm

Yes it is Urartian.
Urartian word for ''he says'' is ''ale''; the same word is used in Sorani for the same meaning.
Kurdish has a strong Hurro-Urartian substratum.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:05 pm

Teshub wrote:Yes it is Urartian.
Urartian word for ''he says'' is ''ale''; the same word is used in Sorani for the same meaning.
Kurdish has a strong Hurro-Urartian substratum.

Well, the old iranic languages don't knew the L-Loud. Because all proto-indoeuropean L-louds changed even in Old-Aryan to R.

Like "leuk" (light) > reuç > reoç > roç > roc > roj > roz (in todays iranian: "day", In Russian: loç, slavic languages do palatize the K-Louds in to ç or j as in iranic)
Or "wlk" (wolf) > verk > verg > gurg > gorg

This L-Louds you can find either in semitic or mongolian loanwords or in middle persian loanwords.

Because Middle Persian did change the old iranian RD-Louds into L.

As in berd-ent > bul-end (high). dird > dil (heart). serd > sâl (year).

The only exception in Kurdish is only the word "le / li", which comes from a proto-version "re". In caspian languages it is using "re" as in Sorani for "in, from" etc.

Only Hawrami and Kurdish changed this "re" to "le", all other iranian languages kept "re".

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:38 pm

I updated the list with two new examples, look at the top to "Updating:".

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:47 pm

Johny Bravo wrote:
Teshub wrote:Yes it is Urartian.
Urartian word for ''he says'' is ''ale''; the same word is used in Sorani for the same meaning.
Kurdish has a strong Hurro-Urartian substratum.

Well, the old iranic languages don't knew the L-Loud. Because all proto-indoeuropean L-louds changed even in Old-Aryan to R.

Like "leuk" (light) > reuç > reoç > roç > roc > roj > roz (in todays iranian: "day", In Russian: loç, slavic languages do palatize the K-Louds in to ç or j as in iranic)
Or "wlk" (wolf) > verk > verg > gurg > gorg

This L-Louds you can find either in semitic or mongolian loanwords or in middle persian loanwords.

Because Middle Persian did change the old iranian RD-Louds into L.

As in berd-ent > bul-end (high). dird > dil (heart). serd > sâl (year).

The only exception in Kurdish is only the word "le / li", which comes from a proto-version "re". In caspian languages it is using "re" as in Sorani for "in, from" etc.

Only Hawrami and Kurdish changed this "re" to "le", all other iranian languages kept "re".


I was refering to ''ale'' (= dibêje), not le/li which means ''from''.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:54 pm

Johny Bravo wrote:I updated the list with two new examples, look at the top to "Updating:".


The Kurdish for zindî is not ''jindî''.
zendeh is past participle (lived), from infinitive ''Zîstan'' (to live).
Kurdish past pariticiple from infinitive ''jiyan'' becomes ''jiya/jiyaw''.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:52 pm

Teshub wrote:I was refering to ''ale'' (= dibêje), not le/li which means ''from''.

Did i said something other?

I know, that in Uratu "ale" were using for "he says". I self studied about Urartu language a bit in some sources. And i said above, that Sorani loaned this "le"-steme for SAYING from Urartu.

What i mean is generally: L-Louds in Kurdish are only in loanwords.

The only excepction which is NOT loaned is "le" for "in", it was a kurdish-own developing from re > to le.

"le" for IN / FROM = pure kurdish
"le"-steme for SAY = from urartu

Teshub wrote:
Johny Bravo wrote:I updated the list with two new examples, look at the top to "Updating:".


The Kurdish for zindî is not ''jindî''.
zendeh is past participle (lived), from infinitive ''Zîstan'' (to live).
Kurdish past pariticiple from infinitive ''jiyan'' becomes ''jiya/jiyaw''.


Interesting Informations.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:27 pm

Johny Bravo wrote:What i mean is generally: L-Louds in Kurdish are only in loanwords.

You must be meaning intervocalic and postvocalic /l/'s.
because initial /l/'s don't seem to be loans;

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:32 pm

Also middle Persian erzan is by itself a borrowing from northwestern. so the Kurdish form of herzan (with typical Kurdish initial ''h'') is pure Kurdish.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:37 am

Also middle Persian erzan is by itself a borrowing from northwestern. so the Kurdish form of herzan (with typical Kurdish initial ''h'') is pure Kurdish.

Erzan is a pure persian southwestiranian word. This say all linguists and also the history show us this. Its the typical developing from

Old Iranian C/CH > Middle Persian Z.

Kurdish developing is this: Old Iranian C/CH > Kurdish/Parthian: j.

In Old Iranian this word was beginned with: erc- and will in Middle Persian erz-, in Parthian: erj-

In Parthian was this word erjan. This Z-Loud is pure southwestiranic in this cases of word, look above to the PDF-document of Paul Ludwig, then you can understand it better.

This "h"-adding is a kurdish own phenomen. Example:

Avesta: agemet > Pahlavi: amet > Farsi: amed > Zazaki, Hawrami: ame
Avesta: agemet > Parthian: aget
Avesta: agemet > Pahlavi: amet > Proto-Kurmanci: *at > New-Kurmanci: hat

This "h" came later in this words too:

Old Iranian*: āsīn, espe, est-, esru-, āsān, ewr, erzān
Kurmanci: hesin, hesp, hestî, hestir, hêsan, ewr, erzan
Sorani: asin, esp, êsk, esrîn, asan, hewr, herzan

* Pahlavi und Avesta

This socalled typical" kurdish H" is not something special. You can see this process also in the North dialect of Zazaki:

"America" is North Zazaki "hemilka"
"ama" (but) is in North Zazaki "hama"
ashtî (peace) is in North Zazaki: "hashtî"
erd (earth) is in North Zazaki: hard
engmên (honey) is in North Zazaki: hemgîn (in Pahlavi: engpēn, so "h" came later in Kurmanci and North Zazaki)
erme (arm) is in North Zazaki: herme

etc.



You must be meaning intervocalic and postvocalic /l/'s.
because initial /l/'s don't seem to be loans;

You can see iranic words with "l" only in words, which are from Middle Persian (like GUL). Old Iranian don't knew this L-loud.#

All other words with L are loaned from Semitic or Mongolian. Or show me except of "le" (for "in) orther words in Kurdish, they are with L and not from Middle Persian.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:12 am

Arzan is not pure southwestern. /rz/ is a northwestern development. Its southwestern equivalent is /l/, and we could expect something like /alan/ if a southwestern development had taken place.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Teshub » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:16 am

As for /l/ sounds, I don't think it's true also about initial /l/ sounds.
Look at the following words, are they loans too? if so then what is their origins?

Lêw (lip)
laq/lîng (leg)
liq (branch)
loke (cotton)
lewerr (pasture)
law (young man)
lar (curved)
lûs (smooth)
leyistin (to play)
lip (hand)
lût (nose)
lenc (flirt)
lêj (slope)
lim (very soft sand)
la (side)
lûshîn (suck a liquid)
lewez (lazy)
and thousands of other examples.

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Re: Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:12 am

Teshub wrote:Arzan is not pure southwestern. /rz/ is a northwestern development. Its southwestern equivalent is /l/, and we could expect something like /alan/ if a southwestern development had taken place.

No no, you make the mistake, that you believe that all RZ-loud or Z-louds must be change.

This is the same false thinkness of "dîtin" in kurdish begins with "d", so it must be southwest. See you the false logic? You must research FIRST the history and loud-shifts of the words, before you come to a conclusion.

Also "zemistan" was in old persian with "zem" or "zeban" was in old persian "hizwa-".

NOT all words with RZ or Z have doing with this Z-D or RD-RZ-L splitting. Only a few words.

This "Rz" in "erzan" has do NOTHING with the rz-L splitting, look to old iranian:

Old Iranian: erc- > will be in Zazaki: ercan, in Persian: erzan, in Parthian: erjan. in Kurdish must be come the form: erjan

This "RZ" came LATER because of the change of C > to Z. It has not doing with L-RZ splitting.

Its the typical C (Zazaki) - J (Kurdish) - Z (Persian), look please to the Paul Ludwig PDF.

Or look to this table here:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_D ... .2C_.C3.A7

They are DIFFERENT developings.

And Middle Persian change ONLY Old Persian "RD"-louds which was in Avesta "RZ" to L.

Compare:
Old Persian: berd-, hered,
Avesta: berz-, herez
Middle Persian: bul-end, -hil,
Kurmanci: bilind, -hil-

RD > will be L.

And some louds was in Avesta and Old Persian "RD" too:

Old Iranian: sered, verd
Middle Persian: sâl, gul.

But "erzan" has NOT doing anything with this developing, if you don't believe me, ask iranists.

Lêw (lip)
laq/lîng (leg)
liq (branch)
loke (cotton)
lewerr (pasture)
law (young man)
lar (curved)
lûs (smooth)
leyistin (to play)
lip (hand)
lût (nose)
lenc (flirt)
lêj (slope)
lim (very soft sand)
la (side)
lûshîn (suck a liquid)
lewez (lazy)

Yes lev comes from Old Iranian "lep".

"leg" is also typical iranic, yeah.

"la" comes probably from Middle Persian:

Old Iranian: arede
Parthian: areg
Middle Persian: aleg
Kurmanci: alî

About the other words we must research.

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