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Heval?

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PostAuthor: tomjez » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:32 am

For me it is like "marranes" in XVI century france: jews from Spain, forced to fake conversion to Christiandom to be let in peace...every saturday they asked one servant to light a big fire in one room, so they can be able to follow shabbat without getting the neighborhood suspicious....they looked christian, for own security, but were jews inside!
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PostAuthor: Egid » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:52 am

Alevi's pray in CEM houses.
I have no idea how to translate this to english.
They don't go to Mosques. One othere reasons is that Ali teh profet, was killed in a Mosq.

Alevitism is a religion that comes from the Cult of Angles, wich is a part/subgroup of Yezidisme.
At later time they have been giving a Islamtic smell, so they could live on as "muslims".
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PostAuthor: heval » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:45 am

Egid wrote:They don't go to Mosques. One othere reasons is that Ali teh profet, was killed in a Mosq.


The fact that SOME Alevis do not go to mosques has nothing to do with Ali's death. That is a myth.
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PostAuthor: tomjez » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:08 am

Still, as Egid said they use "Cem Evi" to 'pray'. And it is not really praying, more singin and meditation. And they really don't like mosques, cause Sunni hate them. Kurds AND Turks.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:30 am

Cem is a dance too, like sufi, alevi uses music, songs and dances to praise God, while music is in theory forbidden by Islam.
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PostAuthor: tomjez » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:41 pm

in which theory????
http://istanbuldakitom.blogspot.com/

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PostAuthor: Piling » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:49 pm

In hadith, the prophet considered that music is bad, and makes forbidden feelings in men's souls :) For that reason Muslims could only recitate the Coran, withou instruments of strings and percussions, just Human voices (it had contributed to developp the beautiful muezzin's recitates).

Then in traditionnalist religious circles, musicians are considered like not worthy people. A Kurdish friend who plays music told me that his father did'nt want he playd when he was young, for he was pious.

But of course, in secular feast, in princes palaces, in all the society, music was important, but let's notice that it is not allowed in a mosque (only in sufi meetings but sufi are very "special" guys) :wink: . In general, it was considered as a pleasure but if you became very pious, you stop to listen it (except mystic practices as I said).

Recently, I listened a radio broadcast about "Assyrian music". The musician explained that music was strictly ruled by priests, they had only religious practices and songs, and for their weddings or feasts, Christians payed Kurdish musicians for playing (or Gypsies). And later, they began to have their own singers, but they had to take Kurdish music for they had not a tradition of composition and put on it Syriac words (as Turks do it now !). I heard one of these song : notes, music, dances, all were Kurdish, only the words were in Syriac.

2 years ago I red an interview of a rapper singer (forgot his name) after he converts to islam he stopped to play instrument, for Muhammad only allowed "human voice".

Of course it depends nowadays of islamic schools, but Salafists are really strict, for example, and let's remember that Taliban banned music in all Afghanistan, because of those hadith in Sunna.
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PostAuthor: Diri » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:59 pm

Piling... Whoever said Music is FORBIDDEN in Islam - is a liar... :roll:


Music is Music - be it reciting the Quran or listening to the birds sing... It's Music...


But thanks for confirming what I have been telling Ninos all along:

Assyrians have taken/borrowed Kurdish music... :D I knew that! After all the Assyrian Music I have listened to - it didn't come as a shock... And thank God that there are honest Assyrians who can admit that their music comes from Kurdish Music! 8)
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PostAuthor: Piling » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:07 pm

Piling... Whoever said Music is FORBIDDEN in Islam - is a liar..


It is not a liar, it is a strict interpretation of a hadith. Or you can say that the hadith is not authentic (there are only 20% of authentic hadith I guess).

But it is an historical and social fact. Of course, it is very easy to denounce it, and by the way, it had had not a great impact on Islamic culture, fortunately !

But I just explained to Tom why Alevis' cem seemed suspect to Muslims : there was music, mixt meeting with men and women, and ppl danced... :roll: And at a moment, Alevis switch off the light... So Muslims pretended that they made orgies !
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PostAuthor: Egid » Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:54 pm

he is not saying in ISLAM but he says in Hadiths
Since i do not recognize any Hadith as ISLAM, he must refere to Sunitims or to an other ISlamitic cult.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:09 pm

Well in general Sunnis recognized the Sunna of hadiths, but there are so false hadiths that only taliban agree with all of them...

Shiites have their own hadiths too... and they don't play music in religious meetings, I think ?

Only ghulat, alevis, sufis, and other heterodox groups pray in music.
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PostAuthor: Egid » Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:13 pm

Piling wrote:Well in general Sunnis recognized the Sunna of hadiths, but there are so false hadiths that only taliban agree with all of them...

Shiites have their own hadiths too... and they don't play music in religious meetings, I think ?

Only ghulat, alevis, sufis, and other heterodox groups pray in music.

is Hadith Suna?
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PostAuthor: Piling » Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:41 pm

Hadith are a big part of Sunna of course. Sunna is the path of prophet's way of life. When the Coran has no answer to practical or social or political issue, first muslims decide to follow the models of Muhammad :What he has done in such circumstances, etc. And these analysis was the basis of Fikr (Muslim Law). There were then four main "juridictions" : hanbalism, shafiism, malikism, hamdanism, which are diferent way to interpret and apply Coran and Hadiths (there are other currents but less important).

But Shiism has its own hadiths for Shiites say that Sunnis had removed the hadith concerning the supremacy of Ali.
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PostAuthor: Diri » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:37 pm

First of all... The Quran says that: There is no other Hadith (except the Quran) and none other should be accepted! - So any "Hadith's" are out of the question...

Sunna - on the other hand - is what we call what the Prophet DID in his life... "Hadith's" are based on the Sunna...

Since the Quran says that it must be seen in light of time and place - it is unlogical to claim that what Hanafi, Shafei etc. wrote should apply for today and here...

I know which Sure and Ayet you are speaking of Piling - and when I read it - I didn't have the same idea as the person who wrote the hadith had... Everybody has his/her interpretation... And that is supposed to be so - Religion is in the heart - not in the hands!

For more info on Music and other issues in Islam go to http://www.submission.org!
Last edited by Diri on Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: Egid » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:47 pm

I also always assumed that Hadits were no Suna's.

Hadits theo nly one which I know Coran , doesn't speak about any other Hadit or anything like follow the path of Mohammed.

Like Diri said, there are many interpatations of of Islam.
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