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Heval?

Discuss about language(s) in English

PostAuthor: heval » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:52 pm

Vladimir wrote:
heval wrote:
tomjez wrote:?????????????? well it must be social pressure. Alevis I know don"t have mosque in their villages...


No, it has nothing to do with social pressure. Even the ones living outside of Kurdistan, in Europe and the U.S., visit the mosque for prayer.
I never heard of Alevi's praying in mosques.. are you serious hevale? Alevi's don't pray in mosques..


Yes, I am serious and I personally know several Alevis who pray in mosques. Why would I make this up?
Last edited by heval on Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:53 pm

Alevis HATE mosques :shock: In Dersim, the mosques built by the Government are only visited by Turkish policement and military ppl.
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PostAuthor: heval » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:53 pm

Piling wrote:Alevis HATE mosques :shock: In Dersim, the mosques built by the Government are only visited by Turkish policement and military ppl.


So you are saying that you speak for ALL Alevis?
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PostAuthor: Piling » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:56 pm

In diaspora it could have social pressure if they live among Muslims. Some Alevi girls could be "incited" to wear hijeb in a Muslim place for example, but they hate it.

The feeling of Alevis toward Muslims is quite the same than Yezidis. They don't like in general to be assimilated and they remember how much sunnis have persecuted them.

As far as I know I never heard an Alevi saying he is a Muslism and prays in a mosque.
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PostAuthor: Vladimir » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:00 pm

Same here... I know alevi's.. and I never heard .. that any of them go to mosques. They hate sunni muslims.
The suppression of ethnic cultures and minority religious groups in attempting to forge a modern nation were not unique to Turkey but occurred in very similar ways in its European neighbours - Bruinessen.

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PostAuthor: heval » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:04 pm

Piling wrote:In diaspora it could have social pressure if they live among Muslims. Some Alevi girls could be "incited" to wear hijeb in a Muslim place for example, but they hate it.

The feeling of Alevis toward Muslims is quite the same than Yezidis. They don't like in general to be assimilated and they remember how much sunnis have persecuted them.

As far as I know I never heard an Alevi saying he is a Muslism and prays in a mosque.


I did not say that the Alevis said they were Muslims. They say they are Alevi and they follow the teachings of Alevism, however, many pray in the mosque. It certainly has nothing to do with social pressures particularly in certain Kurdish communities that I am aware of in the U.S. (which are Alevi by majority).

I think there is just a split amongst Alevis in what their beliefs are.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:21 pm

Well it is an interesting sociologic case of "shifting use of belief". It could happen, why not ? In Europa, religious tensions from Islam are still strong (more because of Afro-Muslim activism than Turks/Kurds), perhaps in some other political environments, it could lead to veru different results.
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PostAuthor: heval » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:54 pm

Perhaps, but why does everything always have to do with social pressures or assimilation? There does not always have to be explanations like these for every issue or non-issue that involves Kurdish people. Maybe it is just a matter of preference or slight differences in beliefs among people in the religion.

Anyways, in the communities I am familiar with, I doubt any relation to social pressure.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:02 pm

Well if you consider Alevism and Islam it is easy to see that they have nothing in common. Let'' see the five pillars of Islam :

- Shaada
- Ramadan
- Hajj
- 5 prayers per days
- Zakat


Alevis don't say the Shahaha; they don't celebrate ramadan (but Ashura). They don't make the Hajj in Mecca (but like to go in Haci Bektash tomb, for example)? They don't pray 5 per days, and they don't like to give money to imams :)

So they have a few in common with islam. Of course they are originated from Islam, as Christians and Jews are originated of Jews' belief... But their religions are separated now.

So we could imagine a kind of oecumenism (reconcilation between religion) but according to theology it is difficult : Sunni believe that Muhammad is the ultimate prophet and are not ready to accept than Shah Ismaïl is an incarnation of Ali/Muhammad and God's Light...
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PostAuthor: heval » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:33 pm

Piling wrote:Well if you consider Alevism and Islam it is easy to see that they have nothing in common.


I am not an expert on Alevism, but saying that it has nothing to do with Islam is an overstatement. You are right that most of the authoritative principles or practices of Islam are not adhered in Alevism (although some Alevis do fast - but even this is not obligatory). Alevis simply have a different interpretation of Islam, as some put it, and have adopted spiritual or mystical aspects of Islam into their religion... In the Islamic Alevi perspective, Alevis even praise Ali and the Twelve Imams as holy persons.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:42 am

They have adopted another religious aspects, that islam considers as paganist, as praising the rising sun, and many other things which is not at all islamic.
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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:57 am

by the way did you know the Slogan of the Program of the killing Qasemlu and Sharaf kandi was "Edalate Alavi"

I dont know what iran has to do with alavis, , i have heared a lot good thigns about alavei's on this forum...like they are open minded...they have diffrent interpret of islam and....

but I dont think they be that good, those peopel who killed Dr, Qasimlo and sharafkandi and other PDK-IRAN were shia arab from lebanon, that I think they were alevi, because they chose the Password "edalate alavi" (alavish justice) for their terrorist attack in mikonos resturant.
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PostAuthor: tomjez » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:21 am

but I dont think they be that good, those peopel who killed Dr, Qasimlo and sharafkandi and other PDK-IRAN were shia arab from lebanon, that I think they were alevi, because they chose the Password "edalate alavi" (alavish justice) for their terrorist attack in mikonos resturant.


Never heard of that but they don't represent alevis. And certainly not alevis in turkey...In turkey they were powerful in all extreme left parties, and guerilla groups like TIKKO. When öcalan asked PKK to stop fighting to save his ass, Dersim Guerrilla said "Fuck you", and kept on fighting.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:47 am

"Alawî" means ppl of Ali in general. I don't think it has something to do with Alevi.

Dyaoko you think that Alevis had nothing in common with iran history ? Remember the Safavid dynasty was originally Kizil Bash aka Alevi, and Shah ismaïl was perhaps of Kurdish origin even if he was comptelety turcified.
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PostAuthor: heval » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:35 pm

Piling wrote:They have adopted another religious aspects, that islam considers as paganist, as praising the rising sun, and many other things which is not at all islamic.


That's why I said they have adopted or absorbed Islamic ideas into their religion. I never said Alevis were entirely Muslim.
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