Now I've seen it all : An openly GAY Imam

[Dilsad]

Where do I stand regarding Gay and Lesbian...
mhm...well if it wasn't obvious yet

I TOTALLY support their right to marriage, to adopt childrens to live freely and openly.
Basically to live as heterosexual couples do.

I have nothing else really to say, on my position, I think that say it all. No?

D.

PS: I believe in a loving, just, fair, mercifull GOD. If some of us have made, are making or will make mistakes (please don't think that I am saying that being gay is a mistake!), I am hoping that GOD would be mercifull.
Remember, as long as you say (and believe) "There is One GOD and It's Prophete is Mohamed". You are a Muslim!

[Diri]

Okey - let's say my name is Saddam Hussein - I a arrange the murder of three million people - I steal their houses and I rape women for the fun of it... I bomb Halabca and I make 1,5 million people leve their homes. I am rich and abuse the poor... I believe that Arabs are more worth than any other peoples! I start a war with Iran and I occupy Kuwait - 1 million of my army perishes over my greed for land and power... Not to mention 1 million people on my opponents side are killed and/or molested for life...

Oh - and I believe God is one and that Mohammed is Gods prophet...

Or

My name is Hitler - I kill and genocide 6 million Jews - and in total kill 10 million - I believe some humans are slave races and some are über mensch... I make millions of people leave their homes - I start a war with other countries I rape/molest and have no respect for human life... I believe in Allah and Mohammed is Gods prophet...

Am I still a muslem???

Let me clearly state my oppinion - I don't believe Islam is a "right" it is a privilage... You can't - in my oppinion call yourself a muslem when you are Hitler or Saddam Xomeini or Assad Bashar - nor Kemal Ataturk... They don't deserve the greatness of Gods favour as a muslim does... That is only my personal oppinion - I am not a fantaic - FAR from it - and I am not saying that a gay/lesbian can't be a muslim - I am saying that to act AS YOU WILL and then do all sorts of things that are in contradiction to ISLAM - I am not talking about women veiling themselves or about cutting of peoples hands - I believe in a moderate Islam - and I am secular - so I am first a Kurd and then a Muslim - but I believe in an Isam you must DESERVE - not one in which we do like most Christians in West Europe - they confess and are forgiven for their sins as soon as they ask for forgiveness.. (That's what most of them think anyway - Catholics...)

I don't believe that a gay person doesn't deserve Gods trust and love - I am simply saying a gay person that acts on something he/she KNOWS is wrong is accepting and AWARE of the wrongness of his/her actions and should then be ready to be judged by GOD on judgement day...

People that are gay and that say - God is mercyfull - God forgives me if I repent - but that is just hypocritical... God is mercyfull to does who ask for forgiveness and THEN DON'T TAKE SUCH ACTIONS AGAIN...

You know what our Prophet said?

To do one wrong thing counts as ONE sin!
To THINK about doing a bad thing but then NOT doing it counts as ONE "Xêr" (good deed).
To do ONE good thing counts as TEN times Xêr (Good deeds)!

Good shows mercy through these types of ways - not by overlooking your mistakes - Your mistakes are written down by Angels - each person has two angels - One writes down your GOOD actions, thoughts and words - and one writes down your BAD actions, thoughts and words...

These angels will stand with you on judgement day and they will read your good and bad deeds... God will judge you... If you imagine a scale - if the good side of the scale is heavier then you have deserved Gods trust and love - if the bad side of the scale is heavier then you have deserved Gods anger and neglection... These are very relative things of course - Only God knows what is a VERY bad and a VERY good action... But God has given us guidance through 2500 prophets and three holy books... We must use our only wepon - our brain...

To say that you think it is "okey" for gay people to marrie and adopt children is in my oppinion a sick and perverted idea... These children are given life by GOD - to give them such an upbringing would at least be a shamefull and insulting action... There is a reason why MEN don't have vaginas - and why women don't have penises... We are created different because it has been GOD'S plan for us to mix with the opposite...

I would agree with you if it was physically posible for two men to produce a child through the act of sex... And if it was physically possible for two women to have sex and then produce a child-----> impossible and WRONG...

God has given us examples of all problems in life and more over HOW they should be solved - Do you know the story about "Lut"?? Sodoma and Gamora? The city was full of gay men who were perverted - and though there were plenty of women in the town they had sex with boys... When the Angel Gabriel came to Lut in disguise.... The men told Lut to give his new guest to them so they could have "fun" with him... He offered his daughter to them but they declined and said they wanted men - not women... So anyway - Gabriel told Lut to take his family with him and leave town because God was gonna destroy the town... He did so - and Gabriel told them to NOT look over their shoulder when leaving... But as God was destroying the town Lut's wife who was a disbeliever looked back and immediately perished by Gods wish...


Life is logical - God doesn't WANT humans to go wrong -so God has made life simple for us... And still we find it hard... But the realities are on the ground - a man can not produce a child with another man - vice versa for women...

The "love" you speak of is a thought and tool of the devil... Sheytan is not "powerless"... Remeber?? Only true and lasting love is that which you trust in God... The EVERLASTING ONE!

Amen

[Dilsad]

oh boy, how passionate you are (I was going to put angry, but we've been through that road, ...and you'd rather call it opinion/passionate )

Anyways, remember when I said, I am speaking of a GOD that is JUST, FAIR.

So that should answer your concerns about Hitler, Saddam (you didn't need to list more than one man...here again you were passionate and I understand that ).
GOD is fair, so those people are gonna rote in hell.

On your point of:

To do one wrong thing counts as ONE sin!
To THINK about doing a bad thing but then NOT doing it counts as ONE "Xêr" (good deed).
To do ONE good thing counts as TEN times Xêr (Good deeds)!

I am not sure where that is from, but it doesn;t make any sense...

Have you heard of that Hadit...

It's the story of this loving child, that is taking care of his mother.
She is old, and every day he prepares her meals, massage her feets, and spend time with her.
WHen she died, people were talking to the prophete pbuh (If I am not worng, it was the prophete pbuh).

Oh, I am sure this kid will go to heaven for what he has done in the last days of his mother's life...
The prophete responded saying that, he thinks not...
he thinks that he might go to hell, because during all of that time he was just waitting for the death of his mother so he could get all of her money...

...

I was raised upon the principle that you shouldn't even think, and that thinking is more than half of the sin...

As for the story of Lut, Sodoma and Gamora...I guess you didn't read it correctly...the people of Sodoma and Gamora wanted to rape the engels sent to them...
The issue was the vicious mind of those men, they wanted to rape...

D.

[Diri]

Dilshad wrote:

As for the story of Lut, Sodoma and Gamora...I guess you didn't read it correctly...the people of Sodoma and Gamora wanted to rape the engels sent to them...
The issue was the vicious mind of those men, they wanted to rape...

Yes I did - but that is not the point - the point is that the Angels were sent in the first place because they were gonna give the message to Lut...

Here:

The men told Lut to give his new guest to them so they could have "fun" with him

As you see I don't stress that - because the MORAL wasn't what they wanted to do with the Angel - they didn't KNOW it was an Angel... The point is that the Angel was sent to warn Lut about the plans to destrot Sodoma and Gamora...

I wrote:

To do one wrong thing counts as ONE sin!
To THINK about doing a bad thing but then NOT doing it counts as ONE "Xêr" (good deed).
To do ONE good thing counts as TEN times Xêr (Good deeds)!

Let me make sense of it: God is MERCYFULL... If you make one mistake - you shall be judged by that mistake alone - but if you do ONE good deed - it will count as TEN good deeds - get it?

And if you were to think about doing something bad - and then choose not to do it - you would have done a GOOD deed - so it count's as a good deed because you were able to control your self...

Indeed - I am not angry my brother - please don't think that I am... I don't have a reason to be mad at somebody I don't see/know... I am not that judgemental - to be angry would be judgemental - as I am not I will not be angry... It just isn't the place for anger - I use my anger only constructively - to defy others when they see me as the lesser... That is all... I have a very positive attitude and am enthusiastic about my fellow humans... I don't go all crazy just because they have a different oppinion... But I do LOVE to discuss and that in a serious tone - to many that can be anger - I am just happen to be that way - A serious soul...

I haven't heard that story before - but is was interesting... And it has a very important point - it isn't always the actions - it is the INTENTIONS that at times count... If we look only at actions things would soon become either black or white - but like I also stressed God judges relatively - the Angels on your shoulders will note your intenstions - which are categorized as "thoughts"... So the human in us will always be flawed - but Adam and Eve were divine intervention - just like when a child is given a soul... It is pure as soon as it starts to evolve it becomes poisened by the influence of the worldy matters... That is why Islam says that all new born souls are muslim - because they are pure and innocent...

Do you disgree that God didn't mean for us to have same-sex marriages? Why can't two men create a baby? And two women?

[Dilsad]

All I know is that I believe that GOD didn't put us on this earth to only have babies. So that shouldn't be the reasoning behind a policy to ban or allow Gay and Lesbians.

if it was the case, then I would have heard that it was Heram to not have kids when you get married and aborption would not be allowed as well(you do kow that aborption is allowed in Islam).

On the contrary, aborption is allowed and you don't have to have babies when you get married. Sexuality in Islam is allowed, and having fun/enjoying doing it is allowed as well. Have you heard of that story where one of the Prophete pbuh companion was late at a morning meeting...
The Prophete pbuh asked him, hey what happened, are you ok...
and the companion responded: sorry, I was so tired, I spent the entire night behind my wife...

Let's remember that in Islam a woman could divorce her husband (or vice versa) for a reason as simple as she/he doesn't feel fulfilled sexually...

And our great Prophete pbuh had numerous wives and concubines...

So we are not only here to make children, we are here to remember GOD daily, and to act well with our fellow people...


DD...

[Diri]

All I know is that I believe that GOD didn't put us on this earth to only have babies. So that shouldn't be the reasoning behind a policy to ban or allow Gay and Lesbians.

Well that certainly wasn't the policy I was advocating... My point is what we call "moral"... What is "right" and what is "wrong"... Appereantly if two men can't have a baby then that is an indication that it is wrong for them to play "doll house" games...

God put us on this earth to test our credibility - God was diappointed by Adam and Eve - because they ate the forbidden fruit... And so we have been doomed to this forsaked place we call "the univers" and more accuratly our place is the Earth...

Here you will see that all forms of sin can be done... We can sin inn absolutly all ways and walks of life... And this is our task - to keep our mind, words and actions pure and far from sinfull deeds...

The matter of sexual satisfaction is very interesting - but a man and another man should not and therefor are adviced not to have such relations... It is quite logical - If God wanted a man to be able to live his life with another man God would have given them more options regarding sexual actions...

To say that we are here just to make babies is wrong - I agree... Life is about other things...

Abortion is from what I have read in the Quran wrong and counted as sin... Unless from what I know - that you abort no more than 40 days after the sexual activity...
The soul is given to the new humanbeing on the 40th day - and as you know to kill a soul (human) is a grave sin...

Yes - i knew about the sexual satisfication factor... And would serve it's cause if only people could become more liberal and open for discussion...

Let's compare gay practise with other sins - stealing - murder - lies - disbelief in God...

To steal and know that it is wrong but to think that "God will forgive me" - is still a sin...
To murder and know that it is wrong and still think that "God will forgive me" - is still a sin...
To lie and know that it is wrong but think that "God will forgive me" - is still a sin...
To have same-sex sexual interaction and know that you have been told it is wrong but to think that "God will forgive me" is still a sin...

See you can sin as muc as you like - that is what the Devil would like us humans to do anyway and it is his last bitter move to have company in Hell... I am positive that the majority of men (humans) will be confined to Hell - because most of us do the gravest sins - and then you have all the disbelievers... (I am not talking about Jews and Christians - but about atheist's and others who deny the existens of the one and only God)...

[Dilsad]

mhm...Diri, tell me my friend, would you be the friend of a murderer or a thief?
Because according to your believes, those two are sinners ...as gays and lesbians...now tell me , why do you have gay and lesbians friends?
When you sit with them, do you tell yourself, mhm...that one will rote in hell for 1000years, this one, mhm...for let say 2000years?

I mean, here you are telling me that being gay and lesbian is comparable to murderer or thief and at the same time you are telling us that you have gay and lesbian friends! I would bet that there is something in our religion forbidding friendly relationship with sinners?

Anyways, some of your statement are very offensive and seem ignorant (though you might think they are funny), such as:

to play "doll house" games...

and

If God wanted a man to be able to live his life with another man God would have given them more options regarding sexual actions...

You obviously need to use some more imagination...I mean I'm not gonna get into details, but there are ENOUGH way to have sex as gay and lesbian...

You've made so many jokes in previous postings that you need to get married, that I'm starting to think you weren't joking don't be angry I'm just joking

As for aborption, well then you agree that aborption is legal in Islam...I don't understand why you started your sentence by saying:

Abortion is from what I have read in the Quran wrong and counted as sin

But may be that was stylish

Hey, have you heard of that statistic:
60% of homophobes are closeted gays themselves carefull to not seem to homophobe, some people may think things about you

Again I'm just messing with you

[Diri]

Anyways, some of your statement are very offensive and seem ignorant (though you might think they are funny), such as:

But may be that was stylish

Well... Let me just say that I am not an ignorant and blond person... I don't say serious things in a stylish manner... And I don't get angry that fast so - don't worry - you will know when I am angry... Most the time I am a thinker... Absorbed in ilusions and philosophy...


But I still think that it is wrong by GOD'S will to have samesex sex and merriage... You still haven't answerd my question - why can't two men produce a child on their own? The society isn't ready for gay adoption... They must wait another 50 years before that is accepted... And only faintly...

Hey, have you heard of that statistic:
60% of homophobes are closeted gays themselves carefull to not seem to homophobe, some people may think things about you

Again I'm just messing with you

Right - I am gay----->


But I agree - homophobes are mostly gay themselves... They wanna oppress others as a symbolism of the oppression within themselves...

You've made so many jokes in previous postings that you need to get married, that I'm starting to think you weren't joking don't be angry I'm just joking

Have I? Gee - I wasn't aware of that - Maybe I am trying to tell myself something - I will need a few hours on my own after this post...

You obviously need to use some more imagination...I mean I'm not gonna get into details, but there are ENOUGH way to have sex as gay and lesbian...

Sure - I agree... But then again - for me it isn't about the sex as an act - it is what it can produce... Yeah - I sounded quite primitive - I know

Making love is one thing... But two men going on - that is just lust and a craving for the forbidden... As I see it...

I mean, here you are telling me that being gay and lesbian is comparable to murderer or thief and at the same time you are telling us that you have gay and lesbian friends! I would bet that there is something in our religion forbidding friendly relationship with sinners?

I should have been more specific - I wasn't comparing their "sin-ratio"... I was simply taking them as examples of other sins... Yes - in principle I shouldn't have gay/lesbian friends but I do---> And I will rot in Hell for it... joking

No I am as I said more liberal than conservative-----> I am not judgemental - I keep my oppinions for my self, unless asked for them...
By the way - I am not in on the sinfull parts of our relations - mostly...

mhm...Diri, tell me my friend, would you be the friend of a murderer or a thief?
Because according to your believes, those two are sinners ...as gays and lesbians...now tell me , why do you have gay and lesbians friends?
When you sit with them, do you tell yourself, mhm...that one will rote in hell for 1000years, this one, mhm...for let say 2000years?

Sorry my friend but I count the years by millions - not thousands... jus joking! No I don't judge people as I said... I wouldn't judge a "normal" civilian unless he/she falls into the catagory of "official" person... Like a politician or an artist etc etc etc - they have a lot of responsibility - they should use it wisely...

They are my friends because I don't pick friends by sexual/religious/personal/political/cultural referances...