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Peshmerga

A collection of threads on topics that get updated regularly :
Peshmerga, Kurdistan Universities, Consulates in Kurdistan, Construction in (Hewler, Slemani, Dohuk, Kerkuk).Top Kurdish Holidays, Top Kurdish News Sites, Top Kurdish Terms. ...

Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: Azamat » Wed May 25, 2011 7:31 pm

thearabchildren wrote:I have said this dozens of times on this forum. Do I really need to start digging up links proving how much Turkey and "Israel" continue to value close cooperation? I mean honestly, not even Jordan and Saudi Arabia can top Turkey for lack of adherence to BDS (regularly called for by Palestinian civil society). Nor can Saudi Arabia top Kerdoğan for fake opposition to a state he clearly has strong economic, military and political interest in supporting.

I certainly believe you, but Turkey is not known to be inferior to Israel on economic and military matters which makes it quite illogical to unconditionally support them. As long as the Turkish government does not fully represent Turkey's true leadership(it's still a military semi-dictatorship), and does not reflect the people's opinion, they will maintain their relations, but this 'fake opposition' will have to come to an end someday. Turkey is taking quite an Islamic stance, which might stimulate them to care for the Palestinians.
Last edited by Azamat on Wed May 25, 2011 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Peshmerga

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: thearabchildren » Wed May 25, 2011 7:35 pm

Azamat wrote:I certainly believe you, but nevertheless, there can't be any good reason for Turkey supporting Israel since it serves no pratical use. As long as the Turkish government does not fully represent Turkey's true leadership(it's still a military semi-dictatorship), and does not reflect the people's opinion, they will maintain their relations, but this 'fake opposition' will have to come to an end someday. Turkey is taking quite an Islamic stance, which might stimulate them to care for the Palestinians.


It does serve a practical use: It's profitable. It was not the Turkish army which went to Brussels to smooth things over with the Zionists. It was Davutoğlu, the same liar who said that they would not restore normal relations until the Gaza blockade (internationally recognised as illegal, and recognised by me personally as immoral, insulting and stupid) was lifted. These so-called "Islamists" only care about money, and they use the uneducated religious masses to maintain power. They are just as disgusting as the military elite they supposedly "replaced". Now do Islamists care for Palestinians? What did Osama bin Laden do for Palestinians? What has the House of Saud done? Islam does not equal help for the Palestinians. The strongest support for the Palestinian cause always came from socialist Arabs, and the best leaders and thinkers among the Palestinians were roughly as likely to be Christian as Muslim.
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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: thearabchildren » Wed May 25, 2011 7:41 pm

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: Azamat » Wed May 25, 2011 7:58 pm

thearabchildren wrote:It does serve a practical use: It's profitable. It was not the Turkish army which went to Brussels to smooth things over with the Zionists. It was Davutoğlu, the same liar who said that they would not restore normal relations until the Gaza blockade (internationally recognised as illegal, and recognised by me personally as immoral, insulting and stupid) was lifted.

Read my reply again; I slightly altered it. The economic ties Turkey maintains with Israel can only be a necessity, and Turkey has moved its interests towards the Arab world, especially (northern)Iraq(no offense, but as a Kurd, I find it funny how little mention is made of Turkey concerning Kurdistan's economic progress). There are literally hundreds of Turkish trucks crossing the Iraqi-Turkish border every single day. Did you ever hear of Ullman's conceptual frame? The Arab countries and Turkey share much more complementarity than with Israel, not to mention it's also ideologically rooted.
These so-called "Islamists" only care about money, and they use the uneducated religious masses to maintain power. They are just as disgusting as the military elite they supposedly "replaced". Now do Islamists care for Palestinians? What did Osama bin Laden do for Palestinians? What has the House of Saud done? Islam does not equal help for the Palestinians. The strongest support for the Palestinian cause always came from socialist Arabs, and the best leaders and thinkers among the Palestinians were roughly as likely to be Christian as Muslim.
The Palestinians might not recieve help from Islamists, but their cause is still deeply Islamically-rooted, since their lands were taken by a Zionist political entity.
Last edited by Azamat on Wed May 25, 2011 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: ideas » Wed May 25, 2011 8:05 pm

Azamat,

First of all it's not 'norther Iraq' it's South Kurdistan! second a big chunk of those 'Turkish' companies are actually kurdish (i.e. Ibrahim tatlis) third, turkey is being paid by Kurdish companies to carry the work out, they (turks) are third in terms of direct investment (something like $300 million), having said that if the Turks don't do it someone else will!

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: Azamat » Wed May 25, 2011 8:18 pm

ideas wrote:Azamat,

First of all it's not 'norther Iraq' it's South Kurdistan!

I know this and I apologize.
second a big chunk of those 'Turkish' companies are actually kurdish (i.e. Ibrahim tatlis)

That guy was about to join the AKP before he got shot in the head. If these companies are Turkish puppets, it doesn't matter if they're Kurdish.
third, turkey is being paid by Kurdish companies to carry the work out, they (turks) are third in terms of direct investment (something like $300 million), having said that if the Turks don't do it someone else will!

Well, don't you think the Turks will leave their footprint there? It's not only about money. The Turks have conditions for their services too, so it's also about power and influence: they do not wish South Kurdistan to become independent. Turkey maintains an active Iraqi policy concerning Kurdistan, and they will keep influencing the political situation in Kurdistan if that means it will withhold us from gaining independence. As I said before, all these Kurdish companies might be Turkish puppets.

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: ideas » Wed May 25, 2011 8:25 pm

Azamat wrote:
I know this and I apologize.


Strange mistake to make.. do you mind if I ask you a couple questions?

Where are you originally from?
Parents from?
Can you speak Kurdish?

That guy was about to join the AKP before he got shot in the head. If these companies are Turkish puppets, it doesn't matter if they're Kurdish.


He is one case, every case has to be looked into on individual bases.

Well, don't you think the Turks will leave their footprint there? It's not only about money. The Turks have conditions for their services too, so it's also about power and influence: they do not wish South Kurdistan to become independent. Turkey maintains an active Iraqi policy concerning Kurdistan, and they will keep influencing the political situation in Kurdistan if that means it will withhold us from gaining independence. As I said before, all these Kurdish companies might be Turkish puppets.


The biggest hurdle in front of an independent Kurdistan is the USA, as they want the Kurds help them achieve their goals in Iraqi politics, in return the US promised Kurds all the rights of an independent country, which is what we have now.

I think you are over-estimating the situation, companies and businesses are opportunists, epically since these companies don't actually own anything, they are just paid to build and after they build they leave and that has little to do with politics, besides the KRG gets +/- $3.5 billion out of border trade with the Turks so it's a win-win.

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: Azamat » Wed May 25, 2011 8:54 pm

ideas wrote:
Azamat wrote:
I know this and I apologize.


Strange mistake to make.. do you mind if I ask you a couple questions?

Where are you originally from?
Parents from?
Can you speak Kurdish?

What, are you concerned of the Uzbek name 'Azamat'? Don't worry, it's only a pseudonym, although it contains a fragmented part of my real name. I chose it because of Borat :lol:
My family is from Dersim, and we don't speak Kurmanci; only Zazaki, although my skills have seriously deteriorated over the years. I don't mean to offend you, but I find your interrogating stance a bit threatening, if it's solely based on that one mistake. Are you the RBK police? I wonder what would happen if you were the head of an intelligence agency. I was discussing international relations, and I thought using the term 'Kurdistan' would disrupt the context since we don't exist on the map yet. I now understand that I shouldn't do that again.
He is one case, every case has to be looked into on individual bases.

Agreed.
The biggest hurdle in front of an independent Kurdistan is the USA, as they want the Kurds help them achieve their goals in Iraqi politics, in return the US promised Kurds all the rights of an independent country, which is what we have now.

I beg to differ. We may have a seperate political entity, but we still remain within Iraqi borders which means Baghdad can still enforce their interests on us whenever they wish. You should realise that the KRG is politically subordinate to the central Iraqi government.

I think you are over-estimating the situation, companies and businesses are opportunists, epically since these companies don't actually own anything, they are just paid to build and after they build they leave and that has little to do with politics, besides the KRG gets +/- $3.5 billion out of border trade with the Turks so it's a win-win.

Nevertheless, some Turkish companies remain carefully interpositioned with the Turkish state, especially on foreign matters. The Turkish government shapes its country's economic affairs in any kind of way that it will benefit them, and a fostering Kurdish economy is of no benefit to the Turkish state.

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: thearabchildren » Wed May 25, 2011 9:11 pm

Azamat wrote:Turkey has moved its interests towards the Arab world,


The "leaders" of which are also more or less interested in strong economic ties with "Israel", especially the ones Kerdoğan is close with. And even if they weren't, they are controlled by the U.S.

(no offense, but as a Kurd, I find it funny how little mention is made of Turkey concerning Kurdistan's economic progress).


You think I'm offended? I totally agree.

The Palestinians might not recieve help from Islamists, but their cause is still deeply Islamically-rooted, since their lands were taken by a Zionist political entity.


Again, I disagree. It's not "Islamically-rooted", as "Islam" has no ideological beef with Zionism: Zionism didn't exist at any point until recently. Muslims have a problem with Zionism, but so does most everyone else (including a great many Jews). Again, look at the track record: Deeply "Islamic" political entities in the Arab world tend to be more ambivelant toward the Zionist state. The only real case you'll make for an anti-Zionist/Islamic confluence is outside the Arab world (Iran, for example), but I'd love to hear the case made that the Palestinian cause is primarily non-Arab. It was the (deeply Islamic) House of Saud who happily sponsored Yasser Arafat, the worst Palestinian: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/471/op2.htm

The origins of the Palestinian cause were nationalist (against the Young Turk movement, then the British) and most of the resistance to the Zionists was carried out by secular Communists for most of its history, with a few disastrous exceptions. In other words: It's not "still" "Islamically-rooted", it has become Islamically-flavoured more and more in response to the increasing religiosity within "Israeli" society (since the capture of the Kothel in the 1967 war).
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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: ideas » Wed May 25, 2011 9:15 pm

Azamat wrote:What, are you concerned of the Uzbek name 'Azamat'? Don't worry, it's only a pseudonym, although it contains a fragmented part of my real name. I chose it because of Borat :lol:


My issue is not your name, evidently as my name is 'Ideas' :lol:

My family is from Dersim, and we don't speak Kurmanci; only Zazaki, although my skills have seriously deteriorated over the years. I don't mean to offend you, but I find your interrogating stance a bit threatening, if it's solely based on that one mistake. Are you the Roj-Bash police? I wonder what would happen if you were the head of an intelligence agency. I was discussing international relations, and I thought using the term 'Kurdistan' would disrupt the context since we don't exist on the map yet. I now understand that I shouldn't do that again.


Non taken, and my issue is not you using 'northern Iraq' and 'Iraq-Turkish' border, instead my issue is that it seems like what we have have is a manipulator, I mean it's quite clear to us (the people that follow events properly) that the 'Turkish-Israeli' rift is nothing but a smoke and mirror game, and the reason the Turks put this show on is to grow their economy, I mean you did make one valid point which is the Turks wanting to do business with the 'Arab world (Again you included Kurdistan here 8) ) and to do that the Turks had to make it seem like their ties with Israel is damaged where as in reality it's even better than it used to be (trade wise), in fact the west is happy to have the Turks their 'ally' develop good ties in the Islamic word so that they can have more influence via the Turks.

Turkish-Israeli trade at record high source: (http://www.todayszaman.com/news-240029- ... lunge.html)

Now, you saying things like 'Northern Iraq' 'Turkish-Iraqi border' including Kurdistan in the 'Arab world' along with you trieng to convince everyone that the Turks are ditching the west and moving east, and the fact that you can speak any Kurdish dialect just adds to my suspicion!

I hope that I'm wrong, but I'm not going to write it off, and since a lot of Kurds read this site (some happen to bee sheep) I don't want to misguiding to occur.

I beg to differ. We may have a seperate political entity, but we still remain within Iraqi borders which means Baghdad can still enforce their interests on us whenever they wish. You should realise that the KRG is politically subordinate to the central Iraqi government.


The central has little say on affairs in Kurdistan, we have been dealing directly with energy companies and now they are recognised. On the contrary it's the other way around becuase we (kurds) have lot of say in Baghdad while Baghdad has close to no say in Erbil, for example while maintaining our own independent army comprising of mostly Kurds, we also have Kurdish divisions in the Iraqi army loyal to Kurdistan, we hold high level positions in Iraq such as presidency and foreign minister while they hold non in Erbil! you are under-estimating Kurdistan which is indeed a quasi state.

While we remain in 'Iraqi' borders, we have our own borders with the rest of Iraq and the Turkish border is completely controlled by us, not to mention that an 'Iraqi' visa will not get you into Kurdistan as you must get a Kurdish visa.

Nevertheless, some Turkish companies remain carefully interpositioned with the Turkish state, especially on foreign matters. The Turkish government shapes its country's economic affairs in any kind of way that it will benefit them, and a fostering Kurdish economy is of no benefit to the Turkish state.


It still adds no significance into the equation as like I said they don't actually own anything, they just build and leave as the projects are owned by Kurdish companies!

for example, even a 'mega project' is completely financed by Kurdish companies and even stated so on Turkish media:-

Talking to the Daily News, Tüysüz said the regional government in northern Iraq has allocated approximately 6.5 million square meters for the project. “The negations took nearly two years for this mega-project, which will include smart-apartments and one-floor luxury properties,” Tüysüz said, adding that it will be the first construction project carried out by the firm in northern Iraq. “We have made an agreement with the Cihan Group, which is active in the automotive, food stuff, heavy machinery, generators, real estate, petroleum and banking sectors in Iraq.” Responding to a question on the possible cost of the project, Tüysüz said, “The total cost will be paid by our Iraqi partner Cihan Group and Ayyıldızlar Construction will deal with the construction of the project.”

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2011-03-09

Kurdish companies have been doing business in southern Iraq, for example recently the Iraqis shortlisted two Kurdish companies for a $1 billion power plant! which will be owned by the company, now that is direct investment where the Kurdish company will pay for all the costs, what the Turks do however is get paid to build and leave.

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: thearabchildren » Wed May 25, 2011 9:16 pm

For example: Did you watch the Nakba day marches? Almost no Islamic imagery in sight. Even Hezbollah, which is the closest to a real "Islamist" friend to the Palestinians from outside their own people (and Hezbollah is really fundamentally secular at this point, even if lead by a bunch of a mad clerics, they don't force their lifestyle on anyone) didn't show up. This is today, after years of "Islamism" getting "worse" and a cause that the media wishes us to associate with those whackos in Hamas...
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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: thearabchildren » Wed May 25, 2011 9:22 pm

Once again, you're asking us all to believe that Turkey, a country whose leadership is close economically, politically and militarily to the Zionist state and the United States of Pork Chops, is going to pull a 180 on all that to please... Arab leadership which has extremely close economic, political and military ties with the United States of Pork Chops and close business ties to the Zionist state. Of course you could argue that the protests across the Arab world will change everything, but if they do, this certainly won't benifit Kerdoğan, since all the money he's interested in comes from the leaders who are under threat. I dare Kerdoğan to criticise the House of Saud. Won't happen.
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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: Azamat » Wed May 25, 2011 10:04 pm

ideas wrote:Non taken, and my issue is not you using 'northern Iraq' and 'Iraq-Turkish' border, instead my issue is that it seems like what we have have is a manipulator, I mean it's quite clear to us (the people that follow events properly) that the 'Turkish-Israeli' rift is nothing but a smoke and mirror game, and the reason the Turks put this show on is to grow their economy, I mean you did make one valid point which is the Turks wanting to do business with the 'Arab world (Again you included Kurdistan here 8) ) and to do that the Turks had to make it seem like their ties with Israel is damaged where as in reality it's even better than it used to be (trade wise), in fact the west is happy to have the Turks their 'ally' develop good ties in the Islamic word so that they can have more influence via the Turks.

Turkish-Israeli trade at record high source: (http://www.todayszaman.com/news-240029- ... lunge.html)

Now, you saying things like 'Northern Iraq' 'Turkish-Iraqi border' including Kurdistan in the 'Arab world' along with you trieng to convince everyone that the Turks are ditching the west and moving east, and the fact that you can speak any Kurdish dialect just adds to my suspicion!

I know that the Turks' interest are still primarily directed to the west, but I can see a change in their overall world-perception, and we should be aware of that before they start putting new policies into practice. I'm just cautious about the huge role Turkey plays in Kurdish economy, and considering we've been pretty much betrayed by the Turks 90 years ago, I think a little skepticism won't do any harm.

The central has little say on affairs in Kurdistan, we have been dealing directly with energy companies and now they are recognised. On the contrary it's the other way around becuase we (kurds) have lot of say in Baghdad while Baghdad has close to no say in Erbil, for example while maintaining our own independent army comprising of mostly Kurds, we also have Kurdish divisions in the Iraqi army loyal to Kurdistan, we hold high level positions in Iraq such as presidency and foreign minister while they hold non in Erbil! you are under-estimating Kurdistan which is indeed a quasi state.

That doesn't make sense. If the Kurdish presence within Iraq isn't in any of their advantage, why are they not wishing us to secess from them? No country would like an independent political entity within its own borders, where no influence can be exercised, and which only drains money from the central government. What does the KRG add to Iraq as 1 country?

It still adds no significance into the equation as like I said they don't actually own anything, they just build and leave as the projects are owned by Kurdish companies!

I hope so.

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: Azamat » Wed May 25, 2011 10:06 pm

@thearabchildren
Sorry, but I will sleep now so I won't reply to your posts soon. Expect a reply tomorrow.

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Re: Peshmerga

PostAuthor: ideas » Wed May 25, 2011 10:19 pm

Azamat wrote:
Now, you saying things like 'Northern Iraq' 'Turkish-Iraqi border' including Kurdistan in the 'Arab world' along with you trieng to convince everyone that the Turks are ditching the west and moving east, and the fact that you can speak any Kurdish dialect just adds to my suspicion!

I know that the Turks' interest are still primarily directed to the west, but I can see a change in their overall world-perception, and we should be aware of that before they start putting new policies into practice. I'm just cautious about the huge role Turkey plays in Kurdish economy, and considering we've been pretty much betrayed by the Turks 90 years ago, I think a little skepticism won't do any harm. [/quote]

Like I said, if the Turks don't do it someone else will, and since turkey is our way to Europe currently we have to maintain ties with them which is why Kurdish companies chose the Turks! I mean Iran is under sanctions so business with them is difficult and well Syria we don't even need to talk about.

That doesn't make sense. If the Kurdish presence within Iraq isn't in any of their advantage, why are they not wishing us to secess from them? No country would like an independent political entity within its own borders, where no influence can be exercised, and which only drains money from the central government. What does the KRG add to Iraq as 1 country?


There are several factors here:-

1. US wants Iraq to stay as it is (at least for now) so that it is not viewed as the country that invaded and split the country, and also for political assistance from the Kurds.
2. A big chunk of water that passes through to Iraq comes from Kurdistan, so the Iraqis would rather it stay in 'one country' even if they don't have any control.
3. Eventually Kurdistan will export a lot of oil/gas which will contribute to the Iraqi economy.
4. We are keeping Iraq together, if we leave the shia will form an overall majority in terms of MPs in government and so if that were to happen the Shia would not need to negotiate with the Sunni at all and in effect take Iraq back to 2007 in terms of violence and possibly even split it into 2 smaller states.
5. The 'Turkish' border is fully shared with Kurdistan and some oil pipelines pass through that border.

All the above (including many more) points contribute to the fact that Kurdistan can say 'well if you want us to stay for these reasons, we will stay on our terms' and I must admit, although we're not on maps our situation is much better than most independent countries as we have all the rights of an independent country + access to Iraqi services (Government posts, etc) and the protection of a 'federal region' from the international community! for example one recent privilege is that Baghdad will pay for our peshmerga forces, and it is mentioned in the Iraqi budget this year.

I hope so.


Turkey is still our enemy and will be treated as such, we must always keep an eye on them!

P.S: I'm looking forward to see your defense to my accusations ;)

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