Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

[Diri]

Ser çawim kak Sîrwan,

Law / Kur / Kiç / Qîz = what you call the "Simple" forms - but which I have put under "definite" - because of uncountability = as in Arabic "Al-Awlaad" = "The Boy".

Let me illustrate the difference in examples:

1) Heke kiç hez'ke = If girl wants to (Simple form - "Kiç" = "Girl" = uncountable)
2) Heke kiçik hez'ke = If the girl wants to (Definite form)
3) Heke kiçek/kiçikek hez'ke = If a girl wants to (Indefinite form)

These are the regular forms - just switch the word "Kiç" with "Kur" (both are Simple forms) and keep the same suffixes...

Interesting! but which suabdialect of Kurmanji is that? Shkaki?

This is standard Kurmancî... When I discuss grammar, I am interested in the standard forms, primarily... Although Şikakî probably is the purest form of Kurmancî... I don't speak Şikakî (as my native sub-dialect) - but my mother does (she is a Şikak)...

Just a note to what you wrote earlier in this discussion - In Şikakî - as in standard Kurmancî - the "-re" suffix denoting "for" is used... But not in my own sub-dialect, in which we say "bo", like Soranî and like Southern-Kurdish dialects...

Examples:

Malê're = For the house
Mal're = For home

[Sirwan]

A funny contrast between Soranî and Kurmancî is (please correct me if I am wrong, kak Sîrwan):

Soranî:
Min kûşt = killed me

Kurmancî:
Min kuşt = I killed

Not exactly Kak Diri; One have to use pronoun suffixes for all verbs in Sorani. Min kusht is imcomplete by itself in Sorani.
To say I killed you can say following alternatives:

Kushtim: (I killed)
Min Kushtim (I killed )

ewim kusht, (I killed him)
Min ewim kusht (I killed him)


One very interesting thing in Sorani is that object of past tense transitive verbs always agrees with the subject of the sentence!!

Yes, Kak Sîrwan, that's what I said:

In Kurmancî (and Soranî) we can drop "ez" or "min" but we have to add the pro-noun suffix...

The rest of my post which you have quoted has nothing to do with that point.

I was refering to the lexical meaning of the sentence: "Min kuşt!".

What I asked you to correct was: does or does not "Min kuşt" equal "Killed me"? Because in Kurmancî it doesn't mean "Killed me" - it means "I killed (it)"...

Min Kusht in Sorani does not mean ''killed me'' to say ''killed me'' in Sorani one has to use a suffixe to determine who/what is subjec tand who/what is the object.
The FIRST pronoun suffix immediately before a past tense transitive verb in Sorani is the subject (doer),
Minî kusht.
OR the first pronoun suffix after the verb:

Red is Subject and blue is object, look carefully at their position in the sentence.
Some more examples:

(Ewan) êmeyan kusht === Kushtyanîn ====both means ''they killed us''.

(Êwe)ewantan kusht ===== kushttanin === both means ''you killed them''.

the only exeption is when the third singular person stands as subject or object. In this particular case, when it is subject it stays as the last pronoun suffix:
''Kushtîim'' but becomes shorthened to =>> Kushtm[color=#FF0000]î [/color] = he killed me

and when it is object it simply becomes omited:
'Kushtîim' but becomes shortened to => Kushtim == I killed (him).

[Sirwan]

So beautiful and simple is Kurmanji! If it had the possibility to enjoy only 10% of the opportuniy that Soani enjoys, it had already swallowed Sorani!!!

[Diri]

Yes, Kak Sîrwan, that's what I said:

In Kurmancî (and Soranî) we can drop "ez" or "min" but we have to add the pro-noun suffix...

The rest of my post which you have quoted has nothing to do with that point.

I was refering to the lexical meaning of the sentence: "Min kuşt!".

What I asked you to correct was: does or does not "Min kuşt" equal "Killed me"? Because in Kurmancî it doesn't mean "Killed me" - it means "I killed (it)"...

Min Kusht in Sorani does not mean ''killed me'' to say ''killed me'' in Sorani one has to use a suffixe to determine who/what is subjec tand who/what is the object.
The FIRST pronoun suffix immediately before a past tense transitive verb in Sorani is the subject (doer),
Minî kusht.
OR the first pronoun suffix after the verb:

Red is Subject and blue is object, look carefully at their position in the sentence.
Some more examples:

(Ewan) êmeyan kusht === Kushtyanîn ====both means ''they killed us''.

(Êwe)ewantan kusht ===== kushttanin === both means ''you killed them''.

the only exeption is when the third singular person stands as subject or object. In this particular case, when it is subject it stays as the last pronoun suffix:
''Kushtîim'' but becomes shorthened to =>> Kushtm[color=#FF0000]î [/color] = he killed me

and when it is object it simply becomes omited:
'Kushtîim' but becomes shortened to => Kushtim == I killed (him).

Thank you very much for the examples - interesting - especially the last part of your explanation revealed something to me:

The use of "Min" in Kurmancî and Soranî - as I suspected - is very very different... If you say Kuştim in Kurmancî it means "(he/she/it) killed me" - whereas you say in Soranî it means "I killed (him/her/it)"...

This is very very interesting. And it's probably because of the non-existence of "Ez" in Soranî.

For the sake of simplicity I will only use "it" - while one can also use "him", "her", "he" and "she":

Min kuşt = I killed it - past tense
Min dikuje = It is killing me - progressive aspect
Ez dikujim = I am killing it - progressive aspect
Ez kuştim = It killed me - past tense
Ezê bikujim = I will kill it - futurum
Hatme kuştinê = I was killed = prefective aspect
Tême kuştinê = I am being killed = passive voice

Ezê/Tê bême kuştinê = I will be killed = modal auxiliary + passive voice


This "Ezê" (futurum) form is non-existant in the other dialects/languages, right? I mean the "-ê" suffix to the pro-noun... Perhaps it exists in Zazakî and Hewramî?

[Diri]

So beautiful and simple is Kurmanji! If it had the possibility to enjoy only 10% of the opportuniy that Soani enjoys, it had already swallowed Sorani!!!

You think so? Interesting point of view...

Soranî is indeed much more complicated than Kurmancî - but many Soranî speakers who attempt at speaking Kurmancî make very simple mistakes...

Such as the mistake of using the wrong sex "-a" and "-ê" endings... It sounds very funny, though!

[Sirwan]

Thank you very much for the examples - interesting - especially the last part of your explanation revealed something to me:

The use of "Min" in Kurmancî and Soranî - as I suspected - is very very different... If you say Kuştim in Kurmancî it means "(he/she/it) killed me" - whereas you say in Soranî it means "I killed (him/her/it)"...

You are welcome.
Not in all cases. it is different only when you use kushtim alone. But in many sentences especially when the object comes before the verb as an enclitic pronoun, Kushtim means the same as Kurmanji.
Example:
Kushtim = I killed.
Carekî kushtim = He killed ME once. (you see it means the same as Kurmanji?!!)

This is very very interesting. And it's probably because of the non-existence of "Ez" in Soranî.

Exactly.

For the sake of simplicity I will only use "it" - while one can also use "him", "her", "he" and "she":

Min kuşt = I killed it - past tense
Min dikuje = It is killing me - progressive aspect
Ez dikujim = I am killing it - progressive aspect
Ez kuştim = It killed me - past tense
Ezê bikujim = I will kill it - futurum
Hatme kuştinê = I was killed = prefective aspect
Tême kuştinê = I am being killed = passive voice

Ezê/Tê bême kuştinê = I will be killed = modal auxiliary + passive voice


This "Ezê" (futurum) form is non-existant in the other dialects/languages, right? I mean the "-ê" suffix to the pro-noun... Perhaps it exists in Zazakî and Hewramî?

It does not exist in Sorani and I dont think it exists in other dialects too.

[Johny Bravo]

Hi, "kech" in Kurmanci is = daughter, and "kechik" is = girl (zazaki: keyna = daughter, keynek = girl). This "ik" have no special grammer feature, its only for the Significance. Not all words have this "ik". Also by "jin" = wife, jinik = woman (zazaki: cênî = wife, cênîk = woman).

lac = son, lacek = boy
in kurmanji: law = son, lawik = boy

lacek is also the simple form. we have as in turkish no suffixes for the definite. if anybody say as in turkish "boy" than it is meaning "the boy". but the turks have also no suffixes for indefinite (they use the number "one" = bir). we have it, it is "ê".

lacek = boy / the boy
lacekê = a boy

The "ek" suffix in kurmanji is in Zazaki "de". Example:

Zazaki: keyneka de rindeke = a beautiful girl (indefinite).

The definite-system in Sorani is totally differently i see, it is really reacher.


EDIT:

Malê're = For the house

this is interesant, we use "rê" for "to". example:
mi rê = to me

to the future in zazaki, example:

ez do bikishan = I will kill it - futurum

we use here the word "do", it meaning = will

to the other examples from diri in zazaki:

mi kisht = i killed it - past tense
mi kisheno = It is killing me - progressive aspect
ez kishenan = I am killing it - progressive aspect
ez kishtan = it killed me - past tense
aman kishtene = I was killed = prefective aspect
yenan kishtene = I am being killed = passive voice
ez do bêran kishtene = I will be killed = modal auxiliary + passive voice

[Johny Bravo]

by the way, do you know what is in kelhuri (NO leki) this kurmanji words:

xwey (salt), bezîn (run), havîn (summer), hirmî (pear), wekî (as), zik (maw), hil bijartin (choose)

and what is this in sorani and kelhuri:

rabûn (to stand up)

thank you!

[Sirwan]

Hi, "kech" in Kurmanci is = daughter, and "kechik" is = girl (zazaki: keyna = daughter, keynek = girl). This "ik" have no special grammer feature, its only for the Significance. Not all words have this "ik". Also by "jin" = wife, jinik = woman (zazaki: cênî = wife, cênîk = woman).

lac = son, lacek = boy
in kurmanji: law = son, lawik = boy

lacek is also the simple form. we have as in turkish no suffixes for the definite. if anybody say as in turkish "boy" than it is meaning "the boy". but the turks have also no suffixes for indefinite (they use the number "one" = bir). we have it, it is "ê".

lacek = boy / the boy
lacekê = a boy

The "ek" suffix in kurmanji is in Zazaki "de". Example:

Zazaki: keyneka de rindeke = a beautiful girl (indefinite).

The definite-system in Sorani is totally differently i see, it is really reacher.


EDIT:

Malê're = For the house

this is interesant, we use "rê" for "to". example:
mi rê = to me

to the future in zazaki, example:

ez do bikishan = I will kill it - futurum

we use here the word "do", it meaning = will

to the other examples from diri in zazaki:

mi kisht = i killed it - past tense
mi kisheno = It is killing me - progressive aspect
ez kishenan = I am killing it - progressive aspect
ez kishtan = it killed me - past tense
aman kishtene = I was killed = prefective aspect
yenan kishtene = I am being killed = passive voice
ez do bêran kishtene = I will be killed = modal auxiliary + passive voice

Hi,
This was really informative, thank you!

[Sirwan]

by the way, do you know what is in kelhuri (NO leki) this kurmanji words:

xwey (salt), bezîn (run), havîn (summer), hirmî (pear), wekî (as), zik (maw), hil bijartin (choose)

The main difference between Sorani and kelhuri is phonetical. Also Kalhuri has undergone a significant infleunce by farsi.

The words above in Kelhuri become:
nemik, (probably from farsi ''Nemek''),
rakirdin (as in sorani),
hawîn/tawsan (as in farsi ''Tabestan''),
hermê, (or 'Gulawi' similar to farsi 'golabi')
wek/wekû,
sik,
intixaw kirdin, (similar to farsi ''entexab kardan'', from Arabic ''Intixab'',)

what is this in sorani and kelhuri:
rabûn (to stand up)

Sorani = Helstan (some people shorten it to 'hestan'),
kelhuri = Helsyan
=> as Kelhurs do not usually pronounce /st/ and omit it.

[Diri]

Hi, "kech" in Kurmanci is = daughter, and "kechik" is = girl (zazaki: keyna = daughter, keynek = girl). This "ik" have no special grammer feature, its only for the Significance. Not all words have this "ik". Also by "jin" = wife, jinik = woman (zazaki: cênî = wife, cênîk = woman).

lac = son, lacek = boy
in kurmanji: law = son, lawik = boy

Yes, one can make that distinction - but it's not uncommon to say "Kiçika min" ("My daughter")... Or "Kurikê min" ("My son")... Yet if we stick to a standard form, then yes one should differentiate between the two forms... And yes, "-ik" is just to distinquish between "boy" and "son" and "jin" and "jinik" etc... In e.g. lexical meaning of words.

lacek is also the simple form. we have as in turkish no suffixes for the definite. if anybody say as in turkish "boy" than it is meaning "the boy". but the turks have also no suffixes for indefinite (they use the number "one" = bir). we have it, it is "ê".

lacek = boy / the boy
lacekê = a boy

The "ek" suffix in kurmanji is in Zazaki "de". Example:

Zazaki: keyneka de rindeke = a beautiful girl (indefinite).

The definite-system in Sorani is totally differently i see, it is really reacher.

Yes, in Kurmancî: Kiçikek rind = A beautiful girl (indefinite)

EDIT:

Malê're = For the house

this is interesant, we use "rê" for "to". example:
mi rê = to me

Yes in Kurmancî too "-re" can mean "to". But in my own sub-dialect for example, we say "Malwe" - "-we" means "in the direction of..." or simply: "to"...

to the future in zazaki, example:

ez do bikishan = I will kill it - futurum

we use here the word "do", it meaning = will

to the other examples from diri in zazaki:

mi kisht = i killed it - past tense
mi kisheno = It is killing me - progressive aspect
ez kishenan = I am killing it - progressive aspect
ez kishtan = it killed me - past tense
aman kishtene = I was killed = prefective aspect
yenan kishtene = I am being killed = passive voice
ez do bêran kishtene = I will be killed = modal auxiliary + passive voice

I would like to see the Soranî version of this list... It seems Kurmancî and Zazakî are very close in this respect.

Kak Sîrwan - could you please put in the Soranî counterpart into the same scheme?

[Sirwan]

I would like to see the Soranî version of this list... It seems Kurmancî and Zazakî are very close in this respect.
Kak Sîrwan - could you please put in the Soranî counterpart into the same scheme?

Be ser chawan/Bi ser chavan

Kuştim = I killed - simple past
Kushtume = I've killed - present perfect
Kushtbum = I had killed - past perfect
Demkusht = I was killing - past continuous
Kushtbam = I wish I killed
Kushtbubam = I wish I had killed
Kushtbim = If/maybe I killed
Dekujim = I kill - simple present
Bikujim = If/maybe I kill
Xerîkî kushtinim = I'm killing - present continuous .

All these above can easily become passive as following! (ra: past/rê: present):

Kujram = I was killed
Kujrawm = I've been killed
Kujrabum = I had been killed
Dekujram = I was being killed
kujrabam = I wish I was killed
Kujrabubam = I wish I had been killed
Kujrabim = If/maybe I was killed
Dekujrêm = I'm killed
Bikujrêm = If I'm killed
Xerîkim dekujrêm = I'm being killed

[Diri]

I would like to see the Soranî version of this list... It seems Kurmancî and Zazakî are very close in this respect.
Kak Sîrwan - could you please put in the Soranî counterpart into the same scheme?

Be ser chawan/Bi ser chavan

Kuştim = I killed - simple past
Kushtume = I've killed - present perfect
Kushtbum = I had killed - past perfect
Demkusht = I was killing - past continuous
Kushtbam = I wish I killed
Kushtbubam = I wish I had killed
Kushtbim = If/maybe I killed
Dekujim = I kill - simple present
Bikujim = If/maybe I kill
Xerîkî kushtinim = I'm killing - present continuous .

All these above can easily become passive as following! (ra: past/rê: present):

Kujram = I was killed
Kujrawm = I've been killed
Kujrabum = I had been killed
Dekujram = I was being killed
kujrabam = I wish I was killed
Kujrabubam = I wish I had been killed
Kujrabim = If/maybe I was killed
Dekujrêm = I'm killed
Bikujrêm = If I'm killed
Xerîkim dekujrêm = I'm being killed

Çawên te sax bin, bira!

Gelek sipas!

Kurmancî passives:

Hatme kuştinê = I was killed
Hatme kuştinê = I have been killed
Hatme kuştinê = I had been killed
(Xazî) kuştibam = I wish I was killed
(Xazî) hatibame Kuştinê = I wish I had been killed
(Heke) kuştibam = If/Maybe I was killed
Kuştime = I am killed
(Heke) bême kuştinê = If I am killed
Tême kuştinê = I am being killed
Kuştî bim = If/May I be killed

[Sirwan]

I would like to see the Soranî version of this list... It seems Kurmancî and Zazakî are very close in this respect.
Kak Sîrwan - could you please put in the Soranî counterpart into the same scheme?

Be ser chawan/Bi ser chavan

Kuştim = I killed - simple past
Kushtume = I've killed - present perfect
Kushtbum = I had killed - past perfect
Demkusht = I was killing - past continuous
Kushtbam = I wish I killed
Kushtbubam = I wish I had killed
Kushtbim = If/maybe I killed
Dekujim = I kill - simple present
Bikujim = If/maybe I kill
Xerîkî kushtinim = I'm killing - present continuous .

All these above can easily become passive as following! (ra: past/rê: present):

Kujram = I was killed
Kujrawm = I've been killed
Kujrabum = I had been killed
Dekujram = I was being killed
kujrabam = I wish I was killed
Kujrabubam = I wish I had been killed
Kujrabim = If/maybe I was killed
Dekujrêm = I'm killed
Bikujrêm = If I'm killed
Xerîkim dekujrêm = I'm being killed

Çawên te sax bin, bira!

Gelek sipas!

Kurmancî passives:

Hatme kuştinê = I was killed
Hatme kuştinê = I have been killed
Hatme kuştinê = I had been killed
(Xazî) kuştibam = I wish I was killed
(Xazî) hatibame Kuştinê = I wish I had been killed
(Heke) kuştibam = If/Maybe I was killed
Kuştime = I am killed
(Heke) bême kuştinê = If I am killed
Tême kuştinê = I am being killed
Kuştî bim = If/May I be killed

Again Kurmanji is easier! although the Sorani suffixes are remarkable.

[Diri]

Yes, you're right about that kake gyan... Soranî suffixes are realy a complex matter... :O


I see I forgot one:


Dihatime kuştinê = I was being killed