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Stonning in Islam

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Stonning in Islam

PostAuthor: dyaoko » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:59 pm

this topic was started by me, to continue the discussion here

I say , I read and I heard these thigns that been said in Quran by Allah.
1-you can take your Kafir(non-muslem) enemy's property and their "females " as sex slaves after you defeat them in the war .

2-stonning and cutting hand and finger are punishemnts that been ordered by Quran

Mosul and Diri say , Quran never said such things and I am making thins things by myself.

here I try to qute the Ayat (sentences in Quran) that had Read those things before, for sure it would take time to find , the Ayat that i had read years ago. but I am sure i had read it. what do you think ?
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Stonning in Islam

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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:16 pm

I think that is a punishment for men and women who make adultery. I have not the number of the surat in memory...

But I know too that, according to the Sunna, for declaring that someone is guilty of adultery it needs to have four witnesses who saw themselves the facts (it is because of Aïsha's story and the camel-driver:lol: ), so, in theory it should be very rare to declare that someone is guilty (could you imagine that a couple make love front of 4 other ppl ? It would be an orgy !).

BUT if some strict cleric mullahs want to apply the law as they like, they could it, even if it is contrary to the Prophet's intention... Men's stupidness is infinite..

Moreover this punishment by stonning is not a muslim invention, but existed already in the Bible (and I guess that adultery has the same punihsment in many Ancient Near East's people).

And for Christians, Jesus made the same "tricky way" to not apply a such law. When Pharisians brought to him an adultery woman, and asked him if they should kill her by stonning, he answered "those who had never sinned threw the forst stone !"

So, as for Islam, it is a way to avoid a such punishment, but without cancelling it really... That is religion, when man could not cancel a divine law, so you can add a lot of restrictions.... In any case, it is only in fanatic islamist regime that Sharia is really and fully applied.
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PostAuthor: Delal » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:21 pm

silly comment to an otherwise very serious subject....but (I can't resist) the problem with orgies is where do you put your elbows?

sorry, sorry, couldn't help it.

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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:25 pm

I found the folllwoing Ayats from the Quran that is transltaed to english
by Ysusf Ali, if you mention he has changed some of the words like the Arabic says "KILL" but he has translated it as" FIGHT" so it show it better...whatever I just qoute his translation.


Surah (Muhammad) Ayah 4

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Surah (Al-Ahzab (The Allied Parties)) Ayah 61

They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).

Surah (Al-Ma’idah (The Table)) Ayah 33

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


THE Punishment of Theif (FOR DIRI who asked for the Ayat)

Surah (Al-Ma’idah (The Table)) Ayah 38

As to the thief, Male or female, [b]cut off his or her hands
: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
[/b]


Surah (At-Tawbah (Repentance)) Ayah 29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day
, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


An-Nisaa’ (Women) Ayah 89

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-


Al-Anfal is the name of a Sorah that Saddam Hosseyn used it to Kill 182000 kurds .

Surah (Al-Anfal (The Spoils)) Ayah 12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."


Surah (At-Tawbah (Repentance)) Ayah 5

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.



Surah (Al-Baqarah (The Cow)) Ayah 191

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.


if you metion , Ismiic terrorist use thsese Ayats in their Webists .

Please Mind that I just Qouted the Holly Quran, and I have no responsiblitly for what Allah has said, it Just "Qouted" it ! if you look into a n English Quran or if you know arabic (Araibc Quran) you will see them as well.

I hope I have answered those who had said "I make those words by myself" and I know nothing about Quran ,and Quran never said such things,
I think If I search more I will find more Ayats for my words.
because I had read all those by myself several years ago !
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PostAuthor: Diri » Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:10 pm

Medya I didn't say you were lying - but I was saying you are exaggerating it... Because it is unrealistic that we should follow these guidlines...


And the MOST important thing you forgot Medya - you know what that was? That these rules only applied to the Muslims who were ATTACKED... It isn't for Muslims who ATTACK - only for Muslims who DEFEND... JIHAD has two meanings - one is "struggle with yourself for cotroll of you mind" and the second is "a holy DEFENCE war - if attacked and if ISLAM is endangered" - which it can NEVER be in these days... There are 1 billion muslims in the world - + + + ... So nobody can whipe out all muslims...

And Medya "KAFIR" means "ATHEIST" and not the people of the Books - they are called "Felle" - in eg- Christians and Jews... So these rules are out of date...
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PostAuthor: Delal » Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:39 pm

"Kufr" means "apostate", an unbeliever in the sense that they have be shown the path and turned away from it, and so is beyound redemption. It literally means "desolate or whithered away".

This ideological and philosphical justification of the meaning of Kufr AND THE CALL TO KILL ALL KUFR is found in Qur'anic verse and the treatises of M. ibn abd al-Wahhab and the earlier teachings of ibn Taymiyyah. Further exposition of the term is found in the writings of S. Qutb, especially "fi Zilal al-Qur'an" - in the Shade / Shadow of the Qur'an"...

I just thought that distinction needed to be made.

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PostAuthor: Diri » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:19 pm

So what do you mean? That "Kafir" applies to peoples of the Books?


Oh - and I don't believe in those writtings... I only rely on the Holy Quran and the direct words of God... I am Wahabi... 8)
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PostAuthor: Delal » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:48 pm

Diri, if you are classifying yourself as Wahhab, you also go by the treatises of M. ibn abd al-Wahhab. Check into it a little further, as I know that it is a recent transition for you....I see you more of a Quran purist at the moment.

When you get into the deeper meanings of the term Kafir, of Kufr, however you want to translite it, refers to a person who has been shown, taught, the islamic path and has turned away from it. To make it a little clearer, if a missionary comes to you, sits down with you, teaches you about Islam and afterwards you decide that Islam really isn't for you and you decide to be, I don't know, Catholic instead, you would be considered as Kafir, because you have "shown the light" and walked away. Or for example you were raised as a Muslim, but don't practice, you could be considered as Kafir. The thing with Kafir is that it is actually worse than being an unbeliever, because you have actively rejected the faith.

Peoples of the book who have never had any contact of been specifically taught Islam would not be considered as Kafir, because they have not been shown the light. Another example for, this might make better sense, imagine Islam as an object hidden behind a curtain. If someone pulls the curtain aside to show you what is behind it, if you do not accept that object and walk away, you would be considered a Kufr because you have rejected a great gift. But if you saw the curtain but did not know what was behind it, you would not be considered as Kufr, because you can not be held accountable for something that you have no knowledge of.

Kafir is also meant to be a mark that you can not escape, no redemption will be granted for you. It is one of those very nuanced things within Islam.

The idea of the Kufr is used by a lot of terrorists groups to justify actions against other Muslims. When Al-Qaida in Iraq beheaded that Egyptian diplomat they deemed him (and all Egyptians) as Kufr. Unfortuatley in our modern world that term get used all to often to further one's own agenda. Not that I am saying that you were doing that, because you weren't, but I wanted you to understand the magnitude of the term.

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PostAuthor: Delal » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:54 pm

Another thing about the Wahhab issue, they are considered as a branch of the Salafi school of thought.

The Salafi's are the ones that go directly to the Quran for everything, which Diri, is I think what you are vearing towards. The Wahhabi are different in the fact that they take the Salafi school of thought as their foundation and add to it the teachings and treatises of M. ibn abd al-Wahhab.

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PostAuthor: Diri » Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:53 am

Okey - thank you for clearing up what a Wahabi is - Because now as you stated - I am a Selefî... :wink:

I do not believe in other words then those written donw in the Holy Quran-----> But I will surfe the net for info about the Selef! Thank you - it is much apprciated!

And about the term "kafir" and "kufr" - I am starting to think that my term is another one - and that I should define what I meant - (I know they are probably the same in origin but I am talking in terms of Kurdish traditions within Islam - not the Arabs...)

And according to Kurdish traditions a Kafir is somebody who denies God all together... He is what you would call an Atheist and he could also be an Agnostic...

So in Kurdish terms (Although currupted version of Arab-Islamic traditions) Kafir means a person who doesn't believe in ONE God... Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in ONE God - and so do the Zoroastrians... Also some Yezidi believe in ONE God - but in their own words theiy believe in Dualism... Evil verses Good - and both are needed for the survival of the Worlds... (Yes it is plural for them... You can find it in Kurdish traditions - We say "7 worlds up and 7 worlds down" - not 100% sure if it is only Kurdish - but I have been told that it comes from older Kurdish beliefs such as Yêzdanî/Zerdeshtî...)

Thank you for sharing info on the Kufr word though! :)
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PostAuthor: Delal » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:28 am

Your welcome. :D

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PostAuthor: Mosul » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:21 pm

yew i agree with everything delal said, i considered myself shafi to, but we shouldnt distinguish our schools to much, we muslims, need to be united in times like these. when the terrorists are trying to attacl and ruin our names. medyah if you want to be a athiest then be a athiest, if you want to worship fire, then worship fire, what ever it is i will respect it, just do the same with my religon. that is fair enough

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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:44 pm

Mosul wrote:yew i agree with everything delal said, i considered myself shafi to, but we shouldnt distinguish our schools to much, we muslims, need to be united in times like these. when the terrorists are trying to attacl and ruin our names. medyah if you want to be a athiest then be a athiest, if you want to worship fire, then worship fire, what ever it is i will respect it, just do the same with my religon. that is fair enough

Mosul, I dont want to wroship fire...but I dont want to be foreced to accept islam jsut beacuse I aws born Muslem.
actualy i am not athehist, I am a wondere , means I like to Questiion everything...

and by the way , I do study Quran, i remeber you said I make things by myself and I make lie about islam, those Ayats that I gave you are my proofs ...read them again...and see that Allah has said to "CUT THEIF's" hand the thing that you told me I made it by myself :wink:

just read what I typied... it took 1 hour for me to find all those ayats
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PostAuthor: Mosul » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:48 pm

listen, i have read the quran and i have heard nothing of the such, alot of people are trying to adulterate quranic verses these days. but i dont think you read my last message, you can be what ever the hell you want to be just respect my religon as i will respect what ever your is, okay!

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